Real Changes in US Healthcare (Euro members please share your opinions)

[12volts]

Nearly 7 years ago I had a serious stroke. I spent 6 MONTHS in hospital
2 weeks of that 6 months were spent in Intensive Care Unit. Out of
curiosity, how much would that level of care cost in the USA ? In the UK
you can't get that level of cover on private medical insurance.
Contrary to some reports as well, the standard of NHS hospitals and care in
the UK is 1st class.


Frank B.

 

[leadbreath]

my brother spent some time in florida and accidentally cut his head on a window pane, he waited about 3 hours to be seen then was presented with a bill of about US$2000 for 4 stitches!!!!
when in london he cut his lip in a fender bender and was in and out the local hospital in less than an hour with a couple of stitches, he asked where do i pay? and the doctor just laughed...

 

[Spiritworks]

Found this chart on the web:

Region Length of stay (days) Average charges Average costs
Northeast 5.1 $27,734 $9,917
Midwest 4.3 $21,522 $8,292
South 4.6 $23,695 $7,888
West 4.3 $35,721 $9,604
Overall 4.6 $26,120 $8,692

So: ( my calculations )
26120 / 4.6 = 5678.26 per day, avg.
6 months = approx 182.5 days
182.5 x 5678.26 = $1,036,282.40

That amount doesn't include Doctor's and Lab's fees, etc.

Average cost to hospitals:
8692 / 4.6 = 1889.56
1889.56 x 182.5 = $344,845.64

Average profit: 1,036,282.40 - 344,845.64 = 691,436.80
691,436.80 / 182.5 = $3788.69 profit, per day, per patient. 

 

[Spiritworks]

I should note that a few months ago I stepped on a nail which penetrated my work boot and went almost through to the top of my foot. Un-insured, I went to local hospital's walk-in Immediate Care center. I have to admit that their service and follow up was quite remarkable. However, the nurses did almost all of the work ( God bless them ). I saw a doctor for literally less than five minutes. They had a few xrays taken and gave me a tetanus shot, with a script for an antibiotic.
Doctor's fee ( mind you, less than five minutes ) $349.00
xrays $300.00
Lab fees ?? @ 200.00
Hospital charges 1200.00

since I'm not on welfare, nor an illegal alien, the only break they would give me was a payment plan.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I should note that a few months ago I stepped on a nail which penetrated my work boot and went almost through to the top of my foot. Un-insured, I went to local hospital's walk-in Immediate Care center. I have to admit that their service and follow up was quite remarkable. However, the nurses did almost all of the work ( God bless them ). I saw a doctor for literally less than five minutes. They had a few xrays taken and gave me a tetanus shot, with a script for an antibiotic.
Doctor's fee ( mind you, less than five minutes ) $349.00
xrays $300.00
Lab fees ?? @ 200.00
Hospital charges 1200.00

since I'm not on welfare, nor an illegal alien, the only break they would give me was a payment plan.

OK, there is no dispute that the present system is broken. Nobody is saying to keep it as is. At issue is whether the government is the only or best solution.

On paper it sounds logical and looks fine. Pool everybody together into one system so the healthy subsidize the sick and injured. This would be fine if people just dropped dead at the end of their lifetime, so it was just a matter of disposal, but modern medicine continues to expand on their ability to keep people alive technically alive, even if brain dead (like the politicians).  So with an aging population and diminishing birth rates, there will never be enough money in the system to give everybody everything. So one major question is who will decide how to allocate the finite resources available ? If a hospital bills a few thousands dollars for stepping on a nail, what do you think 6 months of life support would cost?

Another point that nobody disputes is we need to make medical services more cost effective. Getting the government involved historically is not a successful strategy in that regard. Some of us are old enough to recall when they tried to mandate the price of imported oil back in the '70s. Many of the examples of socialized medicine that fix the prices of medicine, have been getting a free ride courtesy of the US market paying the full ticket to develop new drugs. If we continue down this same road as socialized medicine nations, the new drug development will surely be affected, and there is nobody else who can or will pay. Since the lead time for new drug development is several years, I suspect investment has already slowed in anticipation of the changes.

I am all in favor of free government clinics and healthcare for the truly destitute. I just want to be able to walk into a private clinic of my choice, and pay a fair price for services, with my own money. Not the case today. I suspect no small part of that hospital fee was related to malpractice liability, but going to a hospital for stepping on a nail is not very cost effective.

I should shut up, I don't have any kids, and I am 63 years old, so I would be on the receiving end getting more than the paying end getting lass from this scheme. I could easily ride this bus into the ditch, but it isn't very fair to everybody else's kids and their kids.

Of course opinions vary.

JR

Ps: Earlier in this thread I mentioned what I though the title might be referring to. The "Dr Fix" refers to a medicare funding shortfall conveniently left out of Obama care to make the CBO scoring work. The republican house has put this 2 yr. "Dr fix" into the pending omnibus bill along with pipeline and several other political hot potatoes, that the president has threatened to veto.  Am I the only one already tired of the 2012 campaign? 

 

[MicDaddy]

Am I the only one already tired of the 2012 campaign?

No 

I'm quite sick of it all really.
Seeing the amounts of money spent on 'campaigning'  (even for those that drop out) just makes me sick... how many hospitals could be built or staffed with those funds?

 

[Spiritworks]

"I am all in favor of free government clinics and healthcare for the truly destitute. I just want to be able to walk into a private clinic of my choice, and pay a fair price for services, with my own money. Not the case today. I suspect no small part of that hospital fee was related to malpractice liability, but going to a hospital for stepping on a nail is not very cost effective"

I agree with this. Injury occured after hours, when no regular offices/clinics/etc were open. I've been working construction for almost thirty years, and I've patched up personal injuries with duct tape that others would have gone and got many stiches for. However, this nail was different. 12 penny, and poked right up through my work boot so the tip just came out the top of my foot. Let's just say the sanitary conditions surrounding it were less than ideal.
I don't expect a free ride, nor do I think this Govt. can do a better job. Just sharing my experience with the local health care industry.
I'm also tired of the campaign already.

 

[jsteiger]

We always hear talk about the social security program being broke and broken. There is no way that national socialized healthcare could ever be a better program.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Sorry, a bad example...

Stamford CT doesn't strike me as the kind of place to find an inexpensive healthcare clinic anyhow.

JR

PS: I've dated nurses (in CT) before, they're not all angels..  8) but nice enough.

 

[MicDaddy]

We always hear talk about the social security program being broke and broken. There is no way that national socialized healthcare could ever be a better program.

Agreed, though I don't quite believe it was written for that purpose.  If that was the case, it would have been a one page bill that says "Your healthcare bill has been taken care of, courtesy of the US 111th Congress"

but it doesn't quite read that way...  It reads more like, "thank you for your opinion, but we know what's best for you"

 

[Kingston]

my brother spent some time in florida and accidentally cut his head on a window pane, he waited about 3 hours to be seen then was presented with a bill of about US$2000 for 4 stitches!!!!

Doctor's fee ( mind you, less than five minutes ) $349.00
xrays $300.00
Lab fees ?? @ 200.00
Hospital charges 1200.00

Holy crap I didn't realise it could be that bad! and just how well things are around here.

Then you see all the irrational fear of some strange monster called "socialism". Or heated debates about paying more taxes, when the alternative is having to pay ridiculous thousands of dollars (was it 18 000 a year I saw even on this thread) for big insurance.

Not saying that there are not problems and some sort of reform needed but this is not the answer. I said this on FB and the typical Obama lover/dem's flamed me but how long until the government tells me how much or how little I can make at my store? That is the direction this is heading.

This is exactly the kind of irrational fear I'm talking about. Scandinavia is roughly the most socialist area in the whole world, and it was never anything like you describe. Perhaps turn down the fear mongering fox news for a change.

 

[JohnRoberts]

We always hear talk about the social security program being broke and broken. There is no way that national socialized healthcare could ever be a better program.

It is the nature of politicians to wait until something rises to a crisis, before making any unpopular changes. Soc Sec and similar "old age" entitlements need to be age corrected for modern life expectancy.  Some relatively simple, but unpopular actuarial tweaks could keep it sound. If we address it now, it could be relatively painless and phased in over time. We are already seeing play out in southern Europe what happens if you don't balance the accounts in time, and they are now getting these unpopular changes forced on existing retirees (not a good thing).

Our leaders need to have enough vision to make the unpopular changes now, so they aren't forced on us, later.
I'm old enough that I could be collecting already... but I haven't bothered, yet. I don't feel like i should already be on the government teat. While I haven't looked into it seriously, I believe I can get a bigger payout if I wait even later to start... How much do I get if wait until after I'm dead?

JR

PS: Yup $billions will be spent by both sides, and I expect a very negative campaign, unless we see a remarkable recovery in employment over the next year. If the euro zone manages to avoid a sovereign debt collapse that threatens the common currency, the economy will continue to strengthen despite so many wrong headed quick fixes. Housing appears to be approaching a bottom (certainly has to be getting close), and when that turns, it will motor everything higher. The biggest problem right now is the government still trying to help by suing banks over mortgage fraud and still propping up F&F.  If you want to talk about fraud how about all the people who took out those liar loans? Get the government out of the mortgage business. If lenders have to lend their own money, they won't write the BS loans and sanity will return to housing.   

PPS; I fear a new strategy for the "occupy" crowd is to actually occupy empty bank owned homes... That would not end well. If anything we need to clear this old inventory, not see new delaying tactics that prevent closure and an end to the distortion. They would do more help by burning those houses down (no not a serious suggestion).

PPPS: I apologize for all my fear mongering...  ;D

 

[jsteiger]

This is exactly the kind of irrational fear I'm talking about. Scandinavia is roughly the most socialist area in the whole world, and it was never anything like you describe. Perhaps turn down the fear mongering fox news for a change.

When I think socialism, I think China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries Looks like they still top the list. From what I know about China, they are like I describe. I don't live there and have never visited and never will. FWIW, I don't watch Fox or any other news. I get my political frustration from my friends on FB 

 

[JohnRoberts]

This is exactly the kind of irrational fear I'm talking about. Scandinavia is roughly the most socialist area in the whole world, and it was never anything like you describe. Perhaps turn down the fear mongering fox news for a change.

When I think socialism, I think China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries Looks like they still top the list. From what I know about China, they are like I describe. I don't live there and have never visited and never will. FWIW, I don't watch Fox or any other news. I get my political frustration from my friends on FB 

Well I have actually been to China, but that list is just the countries that call themselves "socialist". China has IMO turned into a mixed or hybrid system when they got infected by capitalism after they took Hong Kong, back from GB and decided not to kill that golden goose. Even communists like wealth creation and prosperity. Capitalism depends on private ownership of property to flourish, so modern China is not our fathers same old communist China. 

When I think about the dangers of socialism carried to excess I think more of Cuba and Venezuela, but all this hyperbolic political exaggeration, does not really lead to thoughtful discussion and free exchange of ideas.  Just like China is a little bit pregnant with capitalism, we are already a little bit pregnant with socialism due to our existing social entitlement programs. Europe is more of an example for "moderate" socialism, or socialism-lite, and we likely draw different lessons when inspecting Europe from our different perspectives.

The question as I see it, is do we think our current path has served us well and will that continue to serve us well in the future if we expand government to take over another 15-20% of the private economy (health care)? Or did our past success come despite our dabbling with socialism?  (my viewpoint).

About the only current candidate who is philosophically pure on the subject is Ron Paul, and he scares even me, with some of his IMO naive sounding campaign platforms. I'd like to believe he is speaking in hyperbole to break through the poor signal/noise of the political silly season, and I don't expect him to get nominated, while he could be a spoiler as a third party candidate that siphons off conservative votes from an IMO more appropriate centrist candidate. A candidate doesn't have to be very conservative, to be well to the right of our current president, while he may need to be to get nominated. 

I personally feel like we need to tack back towards the center and get off this recent hard veer to the left, that IMO will not serve us or future generations well.

Stop turning left when you're already in the ditch.  If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting. etc etc etc...  Lets get back to doing what we were doing before that made us what we are.

JR

 

[Kingston]

When I think socialism, I think China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries Looks like they still top the list. From what I know about China, they are like I describe. I don't live there and have never visited and never will. FWIW, I don't watch Fox or any other news. I get my political frustration from my friends on FB 

When I said socialism, I didn't mean communism. I realise the concepts are roughly equal to someone looking purely from an American perspective, but we shouldn't throw these words around like some populist politician. There are severe differences between the two.

The concept of socialism carries a different twang in Scandinavia. Ridiculously high taxes, but also very high quality free education all the way to Phd., free medical service from a cradle to grave, highly regulated and well functioning infrastructure. There are no private schools here to mention, and I say that with a touch of pride, looking at the roughly horror movie imagery of "ivy league" and how expensive that is. And that you would become a second class citizen if you can't afford the unbelievably expensive education. I would die of an early heart attack having to worry if my kids can or can't afford proper education. And then I couldn't have my heart checked because medical services are so expensive that the system completely prevents me from using them.

Our problems are very different and probably alien to Americans. If someone decides to become a freeloader, living entirely off social services, it's entirely possible to do so, and actually get pretty high "income". That's annoying as hell for an "upstanding taxpayer citizen" like me. It annoys me to the core of my being hearing people brag about it, thinking I actually paid for this bums freeloading. This system also leads to some unintended consequences when kids find out they don't actually have to do sh*t, or even go to school and can just freeload their asses as long as they like. Then we get some nasty statistics like 25% youth unemployment. It's not that there's no work - there's actually plenty - but when there's the choice of getting the same income for doing absolutely f*ck all, or having to flip burgers nine-to-five, what's a 20-something going to choose?


But as far as an example of a well functioning free public medical sector, it's hard to argue with the way this has been handled in Scandinavia and some more structured north European countries like UK and Germany. (I can certainly say from personal experience say that NHS works just as well as our system.)

I should add that there's also a flourishing private medical sector and the affiliated insurance business here in Finland. But that isn't in any way related to the quality of services you would get in the public sector, but perhaps the speed and type of treatments they offer. People often think they know better than the doctor, and if the free doctor doesn't not give the right drugs/sedatives and/or vanity treatments, they resort to private sector. Here the doctor will often - and unfortunately - do whatever the customer wants. Michael Jackson is a shining worst case scenario of this.

 

[Spiritworks]

Sorry, a bad example...

Stamford CT doesn't strike me as the kind of place to find an inexpensive healthcare clinic anyhow.

JR

PS: I've dated nurses (in CT) before, they're not all angels..  8) but nice enough.

Yes, I live in an expensive area, mostly because of it's bedroom proximity to NYC. I did think my example answered 12volts' question regarding costs here in the US. Of course there are places here in the States where care can be found for less money, though I suspect CT is on top of the list for high prices. Everything is higher here - taxes, gas, electric, food, rents......
LOL, I didn't say they were angels just glad to have them around when you need them. I do remember fondly the nursing students from my college days in Bridgeport 35 years ago

 

[hodad]

On paper it sounds logical and looks fine. Pool everybody together into one system so the healthy subsidize the sick and injured. T

And isn't this exactly the idea of private insurance, only writ smaller? 

I like to refer to insurance as privatized socialism.  So do you you want huge CEO salaries & stock dividends with your socialism, or would you rather cut out the middlemen & have your socialism run by the government? 

 

[riggler]

If you would like a good read on our current president from Chicago read up on Tony Rezko, Obama, and then Mercy Hospital planning board.

 

[jsteiger]

If you would like a good read on our current president from Chicago read up on Tony Rezko, Obama, and then Mercy Hospital planning board.

Wow that is unreal. The only one who currently remains a free man is the Obama. What the hell is wrong with us?

 

[JohnRoberts]

As much fun as it would be to declare him guilty by association and cast him from the kingdom, that is not very productive to help us determine the best policy and actions we should take for our future. The future is about ideas not people, while the politicians need to be reliable purveyors of the public trust.

That is not new information (except perhaps for the recent Blago sentencing). Before Obama was elected my brother (a former Chicago resident) offered similar warnings about his Illinois connections. But then is then and now is now. Unlike before, we now have an actual record from his few years in office to judge him by. Like I have been saying all along, ignore the head fakes and look at his feet (look at what he and his administration does not says).
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I found the recent NLRB dismissal of their complaint against Boeing for building a new factory in a non-union state (SC) after the union won concessions in a new contract, a tacit admission that the complaint was never about Boeing breaking any law, but another example of the government putting their thumb on the scale to influence private sector labor negotiations between a private business and the machinist union. Rather than representing middle america and all workers. labor unions only make up around 10% of the workforce. Our government is supposed to represent all of us. 

For another example of special treatment for unions, the accelerated GM reorganization, stripped debt and bondholders of their normal rights in bankruptcy and instead rewarded the unions with a significant ownership stake in the surviving entity. Again favoring a narrow special interest over the more diverse debt/bond holders, many of whom were probably retired individuals, not banks and wall street fat cats. 

Just like any private interest group, they (unions) have the right to lobby and petition the government. However this relationship with regulators seems way too cozy to be good governance.
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Energy policy. It seems we keep finding new oil and gas, despite the administration's actions that seem destined to raise the cost of energy, and make their hand picked green economy winners, actual winners. The unfortunate reality is the job math for the green economy just doesn't fly**... low cost energy creates more jobs than expensive energy which is a tax on the entire economy. (Caveat: this is not a stated policy of the administration, but my personal speculation from watching what they do and trying to make sense of it, from their perspective).

** re job math. I am noticing that a lot of the grand government job creation seems targeted toward construction. The Solydra loans were used to build a new factory, not invest in actual technology or research. Construction jobs by their very nature are short term and closed ended. This is like a sugar high for the economy, where after our blood sugar falls we feel even worse. We need policy that supports creation of permanent jobs not jobs to look good wrt the two year election cycle. 

There is a TV add running right now claiming that government can create jobs. I guess like the big lie of classic propaganda, if they repeat it often enough some people will actually believe it. (not me). 
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There are many more examples of unintended job killers, but like I've often repeated, it is actually in their self interest to create jobs so perhaps they really are that misinformed, because they are not helping themselves get re-elected.

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In an effort to not be a negative nelly all the time, I have seen some recent promising results from standardized test scores. While we are still far from catching up to a number of nations that do a better job than we do educating our children (for a number of reasons), we are starting to see some positive results from NCLB (no child left behind) with slowly improving trends, especially in some of the worst school districts (inner cities). Nobody expected to turn this around over night, but only by measuring results and using that to manage our efforts will we improve. So congrats for the small improvements, and lets keep the pressure on to keep improving. This is not a sprint but a marathon. 

JR

PS: we'll get plenty of mud slinging in the next several months. It would be nice to have a discussion about policies.