Reel to Reel Machine - Head, Lifters, Pinch and Rollers Issues

[canidoit]

Hi All,

I would like to know if anyone knows the following. I have a Tascam 52 DB Reel to Reel Machine. The head section are exhibiting issues due to its age and use but I am trying to make the most of its current state.

Some of the rollers (ie. tension, pinch) are worn on one side, but luckily I am able to reposition it as it is held into position with a screw.

These lifters are different, I can't seem to figure out how to turn it so that I can use the good side.


These lifters lift the tape off the heads when fast forwarding and rewinding but because their worn, their practically sanding down the tapes causing all types of gunk to be on the heads and rollers.


I was thinking, maybe there is some sort of hack where I can just put a sleeve over it, but concerned the thickness might lift the tape off the heads during regular use.

Another option was to use fine sandpaper and try to smoothen it out, do you think this will work or just cause a massive mess of metal debris everywhere?

Is there a hack way of fixing this, without having to take it for service?

If not, is there a cheaper option as parts will not be easy to find. Can this lifter be re-machined whilst still being on the unit or does it need to be removed?

Based on the service manual, it looks like a 1 piece attached to something - 80, 81, 83?


If I do decide to remove the lifter myself (the head section looks like it could be removed as a single module and the lifter separately underneath it) and take it to a machining shop like a bearing or industrial repair store, would this be possible and would I likely need to calibrate the unit when re-assembling it, or simply screw everything back in place and it should be fine? I mean the heads look like a one piece unit.

Anyone ever had this issue before?

Any help appreciated!

Thanks.

 

[MagnetoSound]

The ‘gunk’ has nothing to do with the tape lifters. Your tape has the problem known as Sticky Shed Syndrome.

This is when the adhesive that holds the oxide to the substrate deteriorates and becomes sticky, causing the oxide to shed and get stuck to the tape path on the recorder. The problem normally occurs when using old tape from a specific period of manufacture, late 1970s to early 90s, after which they changed the formulation to address the problem. There is quite a bit of info on this to be found online.

You can ‘bake’ the tape as a temporary fix, if it has material already recorded onto it, or just buy new tape.

Renewing the guides is not going to help, and is not really necessary unless they are scoring the tape, which is rare unless they have been damaged by metal on metal contact. You may be able to rotate the guides by loosening them from underneath the headblock, but they have actually been lapped to shape by handling the tape and you may find messing with this counterproductive. If you cure the sticky tape problem the gunk will not form there.

 

[canidoit]

The ‘gunk’ has nothing to do with the tape lifters. Your tape has the problem known as Sticky Shed Syndrome.

This is when the adhesive that holds the oxide to the substrate deteriorates and becomes sticky, causing the oxide to shed and get stuck to the tape path on the recorder. The problem normally occurs when using old tape from a specific period of manufacture, late 1970s to early 90s, after which they changed the formulation to address the problem. There is quite a bit of info on this to be found online.

You can ‘bake’ the tape as a temporary fix, if it has material already recorded onto it, or just buy new tape.

Renewing the guides is not going to help, and is not really necessary unless they are scoring the tape, which is rare unless they have been damaged by metal on metal contact. You may be able to rotate the guides by loosening them from underneath the headblock, but they have actually been lapped to shape by handling the tape and you may find messing with this counterproductive. If you cure the sticky tape problem the gunk will not form there.

Hi MagnetoSound, the tapes I am using now are NOS Basf 456(about 8-10 years old, stored in a cool place). You might be right though, cause the previous owner used the 52 for archiving and had alot of gunk from their old tapes on the head section.

I'll have to do further tests to see if the NOS 456 tapes have these issues also, as I was mixing it with some old Radioshack tapes I had when testing. There are some tape fragments I am getting when using the 456 tape, so there must be something sharp in the rollers, lifters or even the head cutting it.

The guides as you mentioned, can be adjusted which I was able to and rotate them to the good side. It is the tape lifters that is my concern, I mean the tape runs fast on FF/rewind against the lifters, so if the lifters ain't smooth, and since they don't spin, then that be similar to sandpapering the tape, dont' you think?

I really like the sound I am getting with this machine, different to my older Akai 4000XL. Hoping to get this to a safe usable condition, where its not eating my tapes cause I have a limitted amount of tapes. Once my stock is out, the fun is over, can't afford to keep this. I was lucky to have bought some new tapes, when tapes were going out of fashion and people were getting rid of them cheap. Now their so expensive for new ones!

 

[MagnetoSound]

456 is an Ampex tape, probably the worst offender for sticky shed, and NOS just means old. They will be sticky. Get new tape.

The Radio Shack tapes may be formulated differently, and some types shed the oxide in flakes and shards because although they are not sticky the adhesion still deteriorates. This may be the source of any flaky bits you find.

Well done rotating the lifters. I’m sure they will be kinder to the oxide surface than before, although worn lifters are a lot less damaging than you might think when handling good tape stock. It’s the stickiness that causes the friction.

 

[canidoit]

456 is an Ampex tape, probably the worst offender for sticky shed, and NOS just means old. They will be sticky. Get new tape.

The Radio Shack tapes may be formulated differently, and some types shed the oxide in flakes and shards because although they are not sticky the adhesion still deteriorates. This may be the source of any flaky bits you find.

Well done rotating the lifters. I’m sure they will be kinder to the oxide surface than before, although worn lifters are a lot less damaging than you might think when handling good tape stock. It’s the stickiness that causes the friction.

Your right, sorry mixed my numbers, their BASF Studio Master 468. I added the NOS part, when I purchased it, it was just stock.


Sorry wrong description, flaky, I meant like strips when something gets shredded off like dental floss. This would be on the rollers or head somewhere thats picked up by the cotton tips.

I have not rotated the lifters, their hard pressed into an arm from what I have read and judging by the explosion diagram in the Service manual. I only rotated the tape guides like rollers.

I have read online that I need to remove the lifter assembly from the unit and either rotate it using a vice grip with rubber to protect damaging it or send it to a mechanic to see if they can rotate it with their machines.

I'll do more tests with it to find out exactly what damage I am getting.

Thanks for the info!

 

[canidoit]

Also note that the lifters looks like they have been rotated before, same with the other tape guide rollers, because some of their wear or damage is located in parts where the tape does not even roll on it (ie. the lifter in the pic, see how the wear goes right around it already).

 

[sodderboy]

Try a piece of plastic drinking straw over the lifters. No paper or potato eco straws, the plastic kind. Not sure if they still exist in Oz. It will want to pop-off in fast wind, so tension it from behind with another piece of straw, folded to fit in.
No shrink tube, there is too much surface friction.
Mike

 

[canidoit]

Try a piece of plastic drinking straw over the lifters. No paper or potato eco straws, the plastic kind. Not sure if they still exist in Oz. It will want to pop-off in fast wind, so tension it from behind with another piece of straw, folded to fit in.
No shrink tube, there is too much surface friction.
Mike

Brilliant sodderboy! I manage to find a couple of old plastic ones hidden deep in my work bag but their all crumpled up though.

I ended up buying brass tubes (stainless steel also available) which can work as sleeves and they sell it online cheaply.

I think this can work!

 

[Somkereki]

Yes, that's a good idea! In the past, we also used it at our workplace, where there was an engineer's lathe machine. Although we only used brass. Some alloys of inox steel can be magnetized! It's also a good idea to make beryllium bronze, it's the most wear-resistant! We also tried the quartz glass tube (SiO2), but it is very labor-intensive to grind and the edges can only be melted in a hydrogen flame. Uher Variocord and Uher Royal were popular with us.

 

[canidoit]

Hi Somkereki, did you find the brass get magnetised? So far, I have been using it, and it has turned out well, I have discovered that it was one of the reasons of the tape shredding. Just wondering whether brass can get magnetised in this sort of use, and would it need to be demagnetised?

Thank you.

 

[Disco Volante]

Brass is a mix of copper and zinc. It don't git mag'tizd...

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Brass will wear a lot quicker than stainless steel, but if you use stainless it needs to be austenitic like 304 or 316, these are non magnetic and 316 would be best choice, not ferritic or martensitic like the 4xx series stainless which can be magnetised.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Don’t use old tape that’s been run over those lifters - it’s already damaged and will keep shedding. You can get new tape here:
http://www.casstape.com.au/
Choose audio products

 

[S.Samuelsson]

Hi.

Brass is a mix of copper and zinc.

Yes, those are the two main ingredients in any brass alloy, but just as it is with bronze or any other (cuprous) alloy, that doesn't mean that those two are necessarily the only two.
And usually those aren't.
There are hundreds of brass alloys to choose from, so unless the piece of brass comes with the material certificate that states that there's no ferromagnetic metals present, the only way to really tell what's in there is either to do a material analysis or to do a test.
Rough testing for magnetic properties is relatively easy regardless of the material, magnetize the piece, and test it with a magnetometer.

That said, brass -or bronze for that matter- would not be my first choice for that application either.

Regards,
Sam

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Looks like the heads are really worn as well from the close-up photo.

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

Can you post a close-up of the lifters with all the oxide gunk removed?

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Your right, sorry mixed my numbers, their BASF Studio Master 468. I added the NOS part, when I purchased it, it was just stock.
View attachment 113178

[456 is an Ampex tape, probably the worst offender for sticky shed] -- Practically -- ALL -- of my studio and "LIVE" recordings that I had done during the 1970's using AMPEX 456 tape turned into a "box of goo" because of the problem AMPEX unknowingly had with their tape formulation back then. Somewhat fortunately, I was able to salvage quite a few of these tapes after I had bought a large "food hydrator" unit that could easily hold 10-1/2" reels.

This "food hydrator" can hold 4 - 10-1/2" tape reels (or, up to a single 2" reel), each on its own internal basket, and will bake the tapes to a useable playback condition in 2-hours at 125-degrees F, turning each reel over once halfway through. The tapes are "good enough" to play in order to either make a direct tape-copy or to record the analog tape to a digital or CD recorder.

[and NOS just means old] -- NOS = "New Old Stock".

[I have a limited amount of tapes. Once my stock is out, the fun is over] -- I still have a case/carton of AMPEX 642 tape on 7" reels that are -- STILL -- shrink-wrapped NEW!!! I also still have a few AMPEX 642 10-1/2" pancakes (no metal or plastic reels. Just tape on a hub). I'm 75-years old, so my recording days are long past me now. I still have and keep a 10-1/2" tape-deck around just to playback my old tapes and reminisce about the "Good Ol' Days" when I was 1/3rd to 1/2 the age I am now!!! However, I am certain that the shipping cost to you "Down Under" might be too prohibitive. Interested???

I also have a few recordings on BASF tape and I am rather surprised to read that you have had problems with them. The only tapes I have that -- HAVE NOT -- exhibited any playback or shredding problems are the ones where I had used the SCOTCH 250-Series of tapes. These tapes still look and perform as if "brand-new"!!! Now I wish I had used SCOTCH tape for all of my recordings back then!!!

/

 

[RoadrunnerOZ]

BASF used a different bonding agent to Ampex, 3M and Agfa (who used a polyurethane binder) and so doesn’t shed like they do. BASF eventually took over the magnetic tape division of Agfa in 1991, who had licensed their formulation to Ampex and others. Agfa recognised the problem and changed their binder formula.