reverse osmosis filtration systems

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gevermil

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2004
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478
Location
chicago
Any one install a under sink drinking water type and have an opinion ?
Searching the forums I see John uses one ?
I have a well and my water has a hint of sulphur . Im looking to pick up something decent , the Home Depot stuff looks  a bit cheap .
 
gevermil said:
Any one install a under sink drinking water type and have an opinion ?
Searching the forums I see John uses one ?
I have a well and my water has a hint of sulphur . Im looking to pick up something decent , the Home Depot stuff looks  a bit cheap .
I have used RO water for decades mainly because my tap water had so much Clorox or industrial antimicrobials in it that it would kill my beer brewing yeast.

Just for a sulphur have you tried charcoal filters? Much cheaper.... While some anaerobic bacteria have a similar off smell (like sulphur).

I need to swap out my filter cartridges... First is a sediment filter than the RO unit followed by a charcoal filter. I also have a UV lamp to disinfect clean water... anaerobic microbes can infest even very clean water but UV blasts them.

JR 
 
When i was researching well filtration systems I came to the conclusion that reverse osmosis was not suitable for wells.

I use a 3M Aquapure FF100 filter on my well. The water tastes great. I tried cheaper ones. No good.
 
RO creates 20:1 or more 'waste' water so its expensive for municipal/metered source
I do it for drinking/brewing/cooking
'grey water' is good for plants and animals

do you have softener? rust? my well has bad sulphUr, also turns porcelain and teeth orange
i have 2 stage iron filter and softener too. tap water is fine after this treatment--but its not cheep.

i did diy install of RO-2050 system. iirc the cutting in the tap off valve could be hardest part
i put in basement under sink; easier to service and if it leaks the kitchen stays dry
 
Minor rust , I do have a water softener .
Id like to keep it simple like Gold suggested .
This fancy model on amazon says it has a 1:1.5 waste water ratio.
Or is that a load of shit

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006X3YJKK/ref=emc_b_5_t
 
wikipedia has more reliable info

?maybe your softener is not dialed in.
tmi
iron is really bad in my aquifer so I have double iron out system--'resin media' iirc--Its a rental monthly charge service plan deal and they come out a few times a year and tear it apart to clean out rust clogs!
but the non RO tap water is fine. the ro system cam efrom farman dfleet and they stock all the filters
 
The sulphur smell in well water comes from hydrogen sulfide gas. Generally harmless but smells bad. RO filter won’t get rid of it. Do you have a storage tank? I oxidize (chlorinate) going from the well into the storage tank. That kills the sulfites and whatever else. I have a booster pump from the storage tank to the pressure tank, then a 20 micron particle filter, then to a large carbon filter, then to a softener. The carbon filter removes the residual chlorine and the chloramines (stuff left from what the chlorine killed). Chloramines are known carcinogens. The chlorine also makes the residual iron clump together which makes removal by the carbon filter more effective. I put quite a bit of research into our well water system.

I will never own another home that doesn’t have a whole house carbon filter. When I travel I notice the chlorine smell in the shower especially.

We have an under sink RO system for drinking water. It removes the salt from the softener. I have it plumbed to the fridge for ice too.
 
Gold said:
When i was researching well filtration systems I came to the conclusion that reverse osmosis was not suitable for wells.

I use a 3M Aquapure FF100 filter on my well. The water tastes great. I tried cheaper ones. No good.

You're right.

Real RO needs lots of pre-filtering to keep it working. Real RO is expensive because it needs extremely high pressure. If there's no pre-filtering, the expensive socks clog up and break soon. Water will still run through them, but the filtering is gone. And the pumps won't last long either.

In fact, a lot of manufacturers recycle defective socks to the home market. Except in countries where it's illegal. What they sell for "under the sink" use, isn't real RO. It's leaky RO.

If you have iron in the well, it simply needs aeration. Oxygen and letting it sink down. Mind you, iron isn't unhealthy. It's just ugly. And some bacteria thrive on it if there is other organic matter for them to feed upon.

If you have sulphur in your well, don't drink it. Period.
Whatever technique is used to get rid of the sulphur, will produce unwanted and even dangerous sulphur products.

Resin filtering can catch a lot of stuff, but it needs to be the right kind of resin. Some are kind of expensive, because they saturate rapidly.

Ca absorbing resin doesn't saturate fast and can be cleaned easily. Other resins need to be replaced, or recycled outside of the container. Not easy for household filters. There's new kinds of resin every year, since I was in that sector, so YMMV.

Every well treatment system should start with a simple, but big, sand filter, followed by an active carbon filter. Not something you can stuff under the sink.

Once you can measure those results, you can decide what should come next. Sand filters catch the really big stuff, carbon filters absorb and neutralise organic stuff. Without those, any other filter turns into a money pit, or a "psychological" filter.

You should also get a lab analysis first. Not everything in well water can be tasted, or seen, or smelled. In fact, the most dangerous stuff, like lead, is invisible, tasteless and coulourless.

Inform yourself. And that's not talking to a sales person, or reading an Amazon page. Or even the internet.

In a lot of European countries, the lab analysis is (almost) free and legally obligated if it's for human drinking water. Not that the water police will catch you, but you could kill yourself slowly. Over here, around 20% of new wells are unsuitable, usually because of organic pollution from agriculture. Most of these cannot be treated economically.
 
One thing I forgot:

Take care not to use water softeners if you still have lead piping, either in the municipal water lines or in your house. Soft water will dissolve the lead. I hope you understand lead poisoning...
 
Im doing my best to inform myself !!

Type in " whats the best ...... " on google and its all B.S advertising that leads to
Amazon . I figured the brewery would help .
 
Last edited:
cyrano said:
You're right.

Real RO needs lots of pre-filtering to keep it working. Real RO is expensive because it needs extremely high pressure. If there's no pre-filtering, the expensive socks clog up and break soon. Water will still run through them, but the filtering is gone. And the pumps won't last long either.
Not sure what a sock is, I still need to replace my sediment pre filter that is surely clogged. (mine loads up with reddish brown sediment, probably iron oxide).

I have an additional permeate pump to increase working pressure for better output. The permeate pump captures pressure from the waste water output line and increases input side pressure. My town's normal tap water pressure is not optimal for RO flow.
In fact, a lot of manufacturers recycle defective socks to the home market. Except in countries where it's illegal. What they sell for "under the sink" use, isn't real RO. It's leaky RO.
I am not familiar with that distinction.

My RO system has a flow restrictor in its output line. I encountered a failure in that output restrictor about 10 years ago and I discovered it from an elevated water bill caused by excessive water consumption.

I have replaced my main RO membrane unit once in a couple decades of service and that was to upgrade to newer higher throughput model. My unit has been relatively problem free for years... The UV lamps in the post disinfection chamber is on about the third replacement lamp (one failure was the starter not the lamp, so two failed bulbs one failed starter, these sell as an assembly and I wasn't able to find a small replacement starter for sale separately. I was able to get the old bulb to light using a standard starter, that wouldn't fit inside the glass tube).

I do not use a lot of RO water daily, coffee, tea, lemonade, but my beer brewing can consume 5 gallons in one session. I later figured out that I can use a larger clean water storage tank to give the system time to catch up. The RO unit needs to meet your average demand while the storage tank can satisfy short term peak usage. Over the decades I have had to replace the storage tank a couple times too. There is an air bladder inside to pressurize the tank and those can fail making it hard to get all the water out of the tank. 
If you have iron in the well, it simply needs aeration. Oxygen and letting it sink down. Mind you, iron isn't unhealthy. It's just ugly. And some bacteria thrive on it if there is other organic matter for them to feed upon.

If you have sulphur in your well, don't drink it. Period.
Whatever technique is used to get rid of the sulphur, will produce unwanted and even dangerous sulphur products.

Resin filtering can catch a lot of stuff, but it needs to be the right kind of resin. Some are kind of expensive, because they saturate rapidly.

Ca absorbing resin doesn't saturate fast and can be cleaned easily. Other resins need to be replaced, or recycled outside of the container. Not easy for household filters. There's new kinds of resin every year, since I was in that sector, so YMMV.

Every well treatment system should start with a simple, but big, sand filter, followed by an active carbon filter. Not something you can stuff under the sink.

Once you can measure those results, you can decide what should come next. Sand filters catch the really big stuff, carbon filters absorb and neutralise organic stuff. Without those, any other filter turns into a money pit, or a "psychological" filter.

You should also get a lab analysis first. Not everything in well water can be tasted, or seen, or smelled. In fact, the most dangerous stuff, like lead, is invisible, tasteless and coulourless.

Inform yourself. And that's not talking to a sales person, or reading an Amazon page. Or even the internet.

In a lot of European countries, the lab analysis is (almost) free and legally obligated if it's for human drinking water. Not that the water police will catch you, but you could kill yourself slowly. Over here, around 20% of new wells are unsuitable, usually because of organic pollution from agriculture. Most of these cannot be treated economically.
Lead should not be a problem in most US markets but Flint MI is a reminder that stuff can happen.

I am past due for some normal maintenance. I need to replace my sediment filter... I replace both the  (paper?) sediment pre filter and a post charcoal filter each time. I don't think I ever experienced a charcoal filter stop working but they are relatively cheap. I just checked and I have a set of now filter cartridges on hand so no excuses.

I have experienced a smelly anaerobic bacteria colonization in the output faucet/tubing. Since adding the UV post filter stage decades ago I have been free of those smelly critters. 

JR

PS: I don't generally pimp for vendors, but a quick web search was pretty much impossible to find my goto components resource. Standard sediment and charcoal filters are widely available locally. Apparently the paid click vultures are extremely active in the RO. Check out https://www.waterfiltersonline.com/ I have had good results with them. They have a lot of useful info on their website.
 
A "sock" is the filter element in RO. It's a polyamide spirally wound cylinder. The water that passes through it, exits via the center tube. It also produces waste water, that needs to be flushed. Higher pressure yields less waste and better filtration.

RO filter elements are purely physics. No chemistry or biology involved. They have holes so tiny, only water passes. All other "particles", from virii and bacteria to most bigger molecules don't pass the sock. Typical is a 50 micro-meter hole diameter. Smaller is better and more expensive and requires more pressure.

To work, they require a pressure of at least 600 psi. That requires a series of high pressure pumps (usually 6 to 10). Lower pressure RO exists, but will produce less output and more waste water.

A lot depends on the goal for the produced water. The ones we produced, were used with water cutters and in hospitals. Drinking water RO filters can work with less pressure, if you don't mind lots of waste brine (usually not a problem) and high energy use (not a problem in fi Saudi-Arabia as electricity is cheap and seawater abundant).

RO requires extensive pre-filtering, that's why it's impractical for household use. You need a mechanical (sand) filter if you're treating well water, to stop the largest particles. If you're treating municipal water, you need a carbon filter to stop chlorine. Etc.

The stuff they sell cheaply, uses rejected socks. These are cheap, work at lower pressure and break fast. You can't tell if they're broken, unless you have the right equipment and experience to test.

Any particle in water for a water-jet cutter can kill and ruin a machine that costs around a million...

My RO system has a flow restrictor in its output line. I encountered a failure in that output restrictor about 10 years ago and I discovered it from an elevated water bill caused by excessive water consumption.

Our machines had no restriction, as everything was under PLC control. Input pressure and flow, pressure and flow between every pump, output pressure and flow...

The smallest error stopped everything without destroying the cutter. In hospitals, output was analysed by a lab on a weekly basis.

Household RO could be cheaper, but...

The efficiency would be much lower (not economical in my mind, unless it's well water to agricultural water)
Output would be less reliable (acceptable for home use)
Socks would need to be replaced much sooner (not economical at all, that's why rejected socks are used)

At 60 psi, you get around 100 times more waste water. How do you get 600 psi pumps under your sink?

Mind you, this was 30 years ago. Tech tends to develop. But the industrial systems still are the same. Could be the industry is very conservative, but when it comes to money, they'll try anything to save a buck.

We also developed filtration for municipal water production, breweries, dry-cleaning and agriculture. None of those needed RO. Especially since the cost is high and the yield is very low. "Classical" filtration is still the way to go.

That's why I think the small/cheap RO systems are "leaky" RO. Socks leak a bit of untreated water into the output. That's OK for brewing and a lot of other stuff. It's not OK for hospitals. And it's certainly not OK for water jet cutters, that work at 50.000 to 100.000 psi. It could and would kill people. But I also consider it a bit of a scam to sell rejected socks as RO.

A combo of sand/carbon/resin will be cheaper, more efficient and simply better. It would take up more space, though. Especially sand filters tend to be big. Forget about "under the sink".

Another thing to keep in mind, is that RO water is so pure, it's corrosive. Even inox won't work. It's eaten in just a few months. All tubing needs to be special thick-walled PVC. At 600 psi, there aren't too many companies who can supply it.

Lead should not be a problem in most US markets but Flint MI is a reminder that stuff can happen.

The CDC estimated that over a thousand villages and towns had lead in the municipal water system. Most of those will be problematic one way or the other.

I have no idea about how many lead piping remains in older houses in the US.

I think it's no accident that the one town in Belgium that still has lead piping is also the town ALL of our local terrorists seem to come from. Even the recent riots in Liège (between Albanians and Kurds, 1 death, several wounded) were between two youth gangs from Verviers. Everyone was shocked, as this kind of thing never seems to happen here.

The town of Verviers has a double problem: it's very expensive to replace all of the tubing because it's on a slope AND the local water is slightly acidic. Perfect to dissolve lead. Belgium has been paying millions a year as a fine to the EU cause nobody in politics has the balls to start the project, as it would certainly last well over four years and cost billions. Understandable, as the party that starts it, is sure to lose the next elections...
 
https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/water/wells/waterquality/hydrosulfide.html
 
Inspired by this thread I decided to replace my filters today... The sediment filter was not as nasty as it has been a few times in the past but these are cheap, the labor and time is the larger cost.

The carbon post filter was another thing entirely... Even with the band wrench I couldn't unscrew it... I have a piece of pipe that I use as a torque amplifier. That and my hammer with big screwdriver trying to bang it in the right direction got er dun.

The secret with these is to not over-tighten when you change them. The sediment filter housing was only finger tight while the carbon filter required percussive motivation and torque amplification. I notice that I had two new carbon cartridges and only one new sediment cartridge. Doing the math in my head, I suspect the last time I worked on these I gave up on getting the old carbon filter loose. The sediment filter is the one that get loaded up most quickly so no big deal one time, but not a good policy.

I noticed that my 9 gallon storage tank had a sticker dated 2015 so only 6 YO.

Don't be discouraged by the expert advice. I've used under-sink RO for decades and my beer microbes like the water purity. My larger problem is getting down on the floor to work on them at my age and advancing decrepitude.

JR
 
shabtek said:
the set up I have wants to have the gaskets changed and lubricated with silicone when filters are replaced
Good idea thanx. Apparently (food grade?) dow 111 silicon is recommended... not cheap but I will pick some up for next time.

JR
 
your local HBS may have keg lube; silicone for corny keg gaskets
the pentair filter sets come with a little tube of it
 
shabtek said:
your local HBS may have keg lube; silicone for corny keg gaskets
the pentair filter sets come with a little tube of it

I just checked my stash of supplies and no free grease, but I have some unused o-rings... the label on the 0-ring envelopes say to replace them every time (i don't ) but maybe I need to start.

I have 1/2 oz of 111 on order but no hurry I should be good for several months.

JR
 

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