ribbon mic:2b or not 2b OR..THE TOOBIE D-2b MkII audio clips

[ToobieSnack]

tsplease see the latest post/clip of the D-2b "MkII" this has a ribbon double the size of the MkI


hi all..

i am sooo excited .. :grin:
over the last three days i have been constructing the Destroyer D-2's.
The only difference between the a and b version is the type/thickness of the metal i used for the MRC.

also the D-2a needs to be rebuilt because of some circuit shorts .. the mics still worked but ... my mrc frame was acting as a conductor and as we know this adds resistance thus noise and signal loss.. but beleive me it still sounded great! ..
as soon as i isolate my circuitry it's performance will undoubtedly jump... :fingers crossed:

the D-2b was a pain to fabricate because the metal was so soft and thin. which was a good thing is some ways but required more attention to the MRC .. still a fast build ...

things changed in the series 2 mics were:

I TRIPLED :shock: my magnet size
the magnets are also upgraded strength of N40 (D-1c used N32)
My ribbon width has been reduced by HALF! :shock:

resutls were:
increased strength (er duh... obviously right? .. because of the magnets)
and Decreased noise floor... ( from the decreased resistance of a thinner width ribbon)
the mic is super quite :grin: thanks for this suggestion marik ... this was something i resisted at first (huh :grin: didn't see that pun till the re-read haha).. thanks for sticking with me and the 10,000 suggestions to change my ribbon width .. hehe sorry it took me so long

I'll post a sound clip or 2.
one thing i like about this mic is that when you sing those real low notes it picks up a warm, airy, breathy quality ... (hope that makes sense???)
but it's like these low airy notes have texture to them .. it's a nice !!!! :grin: almost like the mic is picking up your vocal chords directly... revealing details..

I'm still using these cigarette foil ribbons .. :?

rbod ... :shock: i found a peice of 1 or 2 micron stuff dick blick sent me ..
and i tried to make a ribbon out of it ... please excuse me while i say WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF holy crap and anything you want to add ... LOL ... :me cry like little baby waaaaahhh!!!..

DUDE plz PLZ PLEASE offer some details and pics and video or mail me a magic dwarf to demonstrate .. LOL on this work with the 1 and 2 micron ribbons.. YOU DA MAN :thumb:

uh and if you ever though of visiting the states the hehe the carolina mountains are beautiful this time of year hahahahaah. you do do a ribbon master class hehe...

anyway .. just trying to express my excitement for now.. i wanna go play with my new toy some more ... hehe :wink:

AND IN THE MEAN TIME .... CAN ANY ONE HOST SOME SOUND CLIPS FOR ME? my ftp is only 5 megs yuk!

anyway later all

 

[rodabod]

Hey Toobie,

This all sounds good. :razz:

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
I TRIPLED :shock: my magnet size
the magnets are also upgraded strength of N40 (D-1c used N32)
My ribbon width has been reduced by HALF! :shock:[/quote]

Cool. It's good that you've been properly experimenting.

Decreased noise floor... ( from the decreased resistance of a thinner width ribbon)

Wait a second... A thinner ribbon would have higher resistance. Maybe the signal to noise ratio is increased because of the new (higher) resistance is more suitable.

the mic is super quite :grin:

Good Stuff :thumb: . The problem often is finding a preamp that is quiet enough!

I'm still using these cigarette foil ribbons .. :?

This could still be ok. Are they flat and smooth with no perforations? I wonder how thick it is?

rbod ... :shock: i found a peice of 1 or 2 micron stuff dick blick sent me ..
and i tried to make a ribbon out of it ... please excuse me while i say WTF

DUDE plz PLZ PLEASE offer some details and pics and video or mail me a magic dwarf to demonstrate .. LOL on this work with the 1 and 2 micron ribbons.. YOU DA MAN :thumb:

Well, the thinner, ~1 micron stuff is a quite a bit more difficult than the ~2 micron stuff. The 2.5 micron (fairly standard) ribbon stock is not too much trouble. I've never thrown one away from badly corrugating it. However, that ~1 micron stuff can be a pain. It requires a very steady hand, and a lot of patience...

The other thing is, you have to (should be) selective about what ribbon thickness you use with what ribbon mic. Some mics are happy (even better) with thinner ribbons, whilst some are less happy and can lose output (and therefore signal to noise ratio is worse) and tonal balance.

Well, I was thinking of doing a step by step guide (I don't have a webcam a la CJ) a few weeks ago, but now I'm not completely sure. Some people have expressed concerns about keeping information confidential recently which has put me off a bit.

I will try and get something together for you though and then consider putting it on the board.

uh and if you ever though of visiting the states the hehe the carolina mountains are beautiful this time of year hahahahaah.

Don't tempt me! The weather here is absolutely miserable just now and it gets dark from 4PM onwards. This will get worse....

AND IN THE MEAN TIME .... CAN ANY ONE HOST SOME SOUND CLIPS FOR ME? my ftp is only 5 megs yuk!

Yeah, sure. Just send them to the groupdiy email accounts: [email protected] and [email protected] (backup email) and I will put them up.

Roddy

 

[ToobieSnack]

hi all

finally got around to this .. sorry for the wait ....

this is a short greeting my lab buddies ... very short (so i could fit it on my ftp)
it is in raw wave format so it is short and fat with all the signal present .. and NO processing.
recorded at a distance of 2 feet thorugh a radius 50 mic pre set to max gain.

i just read that Roddy will post some larger clips for me .. so i'll record those now and send em off ..

THANKS RODDY :thumb:

anyway her ya go

CLICK HERE

later
ts

 

[ToobieSnack]

hi again,

just finished this clip with some guitar.

i aimed the mic down the neck pointing at the bridge
distance is aprox 3 feet.
again throught the radius 50 with gain at max.
track volume in performer was seto to +4.20 db
and main volume was set at +4.20db
double 420's hehe
there is NO processing of any sort (no verb compression eq nothing)
anyway this is a lil quasi-flaminco peice ... hehe :grin:
lots of different right hand techniques in this peice.
note the "bass slap" type of technique :grin:
there's only ONE strum at the end hehe the rest is ... well you'll see
i point this out because these slaps are very transient ..
the ribbon mic doesn't seem to overload as easy on these transients ..but ..
i did have to account for them with my levels so i wouldn't get any digital clip (click)..

the file size is only 7.5 megs suprisingly but still too big for my tiny 5 meg ftp :sad:

anyway I'll send these off to Roddy here in a min or 2

ENJOY! looking forward to comments :grin:
later
ts

 

[rodabod]

Ok,

Having heard Toobie's impressive guitar playing, I thought I should put them up now.

Hopefully these links will work, it's 3.30 here and I've just get back from a party and should be in bed.

Anyhow, give these a go;

For WAV: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/rodabod/d-2btestguitar1.wav

For you MP3 suckaz: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/rodabod/d-2btestguitar2.mp3

 

[northsiderap]

Nice sounding mic - - -

Sweeeeeeet..... What was your guitar/room setup like?

 

[KingKai]

Outstanding Toobie :thumb:

I really like the smooth high end.

Peace - Out, Irv

 

[ToobieSnack]

Thanks Roddy KinKai (like kai krauss?) and nothside.

my guitar room ??? haha well i just have a lil workstation set up here in a spare room .. ya know a couch ...a lab table and a recliner then i have a bay window that is stacked so full of equipment you can't even see the window :shock: LOL

so lots of un-even surfaces and soft fluffy things like the couch and the reclining chair.

i am lucky to be on the third floor with really good neighbors .. my apt is all the way at the back of the complex too so .... no cars driving by (and beleive me .. recordings can really be wrecked by some fool cranking 50 cent in his whip. (whip=car/truck).

anyway i think i wall try one more design with a wider ribbon ... then i think this design will have been configured every possible way ... i might even go for some tiny pole peices if i can figure it out .. :?

ALSO for those counting time signatures .. (or trying to dance to this ... lol)
the first 2 phrases are 13/8 and the second 2 are 6/8 .. didn;t really break down the numbers till someone mentioned it.....

well ... off to finish up some CD duplication ...

later
ts

 

[rodabod]

I think the sound of the mic seems really good - I'm impressed.

There are no dodgy resonances or anything bad, just a good realistic sound that you would expect from a well-designed mic.

My only slight worry is the noise level / signal to noise ratio. How quiet is that HHB preamp you have? I've never seen one of those before.

Are you still using the cigarette foil for the ribbon material?

If the dimensions are not too difficult, I could send you a ~ 1 micron ribbon to see if it made any difference. Depending on your ribbon dimensions, it could have too high a resistance, but it is still worth a try.

 

[KingKai]

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]Thanks Roddy KinKai (like kai krauss?) and nothside.
[/quote]

KingKai is a character from an ainame(sp) cartoon "Dragon Ball Z".
My daughters watched it all the time and I got sucked in. KingKai was a somewhat ditzi character that I liked and somewhat identified with.
KingKai is now my nickname from my daughters so it became my net dophleganger (sp).

Good thing spelling is not required.

Peace - Out

Irv

 

[ToobieSnack]

Xvlk these are the pcm files you requested with NO processing .. i had hoped to see some comment from you and marik... :sad:
both files (my voice and the one roddy is hosting for me is guitar)

kai oh yes how silly of me not to recognise that i have a daughter too .. haha ... it's funny how the culture of youth rolls back onto our lives ... :grin:


roddy ,,,

your offer is wonderful and of course i will be in contact vai PM :grin: :thumb:

hopefully tomorrow i will have built a D-2c with a wider ribbon ... just to see what happens...

i think the wider ribbon will have less resistance and thus less noise... also i will have more mass in the flux gap so this should translate into increased output... or am i missing somehting here?

ALSO: the more i think about it .. the d-1c had a really wide ribbon and it had pretty good output conisdering the small magnets ...

i know my flux has to be really good but i need to try to find more power here ...

i wonder if that sowter 1:40 is what i need ? if my mics self noise is ok then it would be fine to step the signal up more .. or .. am i missing something here too? ..

i know impedance is a consideration .. but... i think i have low enough ribbon resistance to use this trafo .. it would be nice to hook one up and just see what happens ...

this hhb i am using here is at an insane 95 db (60 at the input 20 at make up gain and 15 at output) at least that is what the knobs say ..
i imagine that, wide open, this hhb is probaly adding noise ...

i'll try to record that noise and see if we can super-impose the reverse phase signal to get some idea of the mics self noise ... (i think you were telling me you could do this????)

now with all this gain.....you can hear a ciggrette burn! :shock: and it sounds like a fire place at about 10 cm ... but i want good gain at 3 feet. :sad:

anyway let me se what happens tomorrow .. (hopefully sometimes things come up)

and i'll let yo know what happens ..
later
ts

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
your offer is wonderful and of course i will be in contact vai PM :grin: :thumb:

hopefully tomorrow i will have built a D-2c with a wider ribbon ... just to see what happens...

i think the wider ribbon will have less resistance and thus less noise... also i will have more mass in the flux gap so this should translate into increased output... or am i missing somehting here?[/quote]

A wider ribbon may help if the one at the moment has too high a resistance. You want the ribbons resistance to be well matched to the transformer so that you get plenty of signal into it, since more signal = relatively less noise.

Here is a quote from the BBC book, Microphones

"The width of the ribbon is important and is determined by a number of opposing factors. If the ribbon is very narrow, the gap between the pole-pieces can be reduced in width, resulting in an increased flux in the gap and an increase in the open-circuit voltage of the microphone. Unfortunately, reducing the width of the ribbon increases its resistance and in turn, increases the internal impedance of the microphone considered as an alternator. When working into a load, the voltage drop which occurs as a result of the increased ribbon resistance can adversely affect the bass response of the microphone. Taking into consideration all the conflicting factors, a ribbon width of 0.25 to 0.23 in. is a good compromise."

Phew, that was a long one. But a good one! I'd take this advice from the BBC, but with modern magnets and pole-piece design, I reckon you could probably get away with a wider ribbon in there. Have you ever seen inside a STC 4038? I seem to recall the ribbon looked very wide.

ALSO: the more i think about it .. the d-1c had a really wide ribbon and it had pretty good output conisdering the small magnets ...

i know my flux has to be really good but i need to try to find more power here ...

You might be right. Going by what the BBC says though, you might be right about trying a wider ribbon if your magnets are strong enough.

i wonder if that sowter 1:40 is what i need ? if my mics self noise is ok then it would be fine to step the signal up more .. or .. am i missing something here too? ..

I'd wait at the moment. You might find that your ribbon was too narrow in the first place (or something else) and that you can sort it out with the transformer you are currently using. If it turns out that your ribbon resistance was too high, you'd find that the 1:40 would probably make it worse - remember that the transformer steps up the ribbon resistance by the turns ratio squared (40 squared). It's a shame you don't have access to an accurate resistance meter - I have one in my old uni if I'd ever need to use it.

i know impedance is a consideration .. but... i think i have low enough ribbon resistance to use this trafo .. it would be nice to hook one up and just see what happens ...

Yeah, on the other hand, I suppose you could if you think your ribbon resistance is low. If you are going to use one in the end, then maybe you should buy one anyway. Remember that Sowter offer two ribbon transformer for different ribbon resistances.

i'll try to record that noise and see if we can super-impose the reverse phase signal to get some idea of the mics self noise ... (i think you were telling me you could do this????)

I don't think that would work since white noise is inherently random.

anyway let me se what happens tomorrow .. (hopefully sometimes things come up)

Cool, keep us posted!

[/quote]

 

[ToobieSnack]

On this day 7:30 PM December 2 2005 i have created the Destroyer D-2b MkII

rodabad ... OH ...MY .... GOD ... i have completed the new mic with he wider ribbon and OMG OMG OMG compete success ...

upon building the frame i never really know what my final ribbon width will be until i am done ... well.. as luck would have it my ribbon gap is exactly 1/4" as the BBC has suggested .. and .. as i have trusted RCA in the first place ... ( i have a 74b that sounds pretty good)

rbod... er ... i think i am ready for that ribbon :wink: buddy ... :grin:
0.23" X 2.5" X 1.5 micron please hehe :grin:

ALSO!!!! I am now at a cool 65db of gain :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: this is the best news !!!!
ZERO noise very natural sounding ...:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
i am able to drive the compressor if i set the threshold low
(because now i can set my hhb preamp to 50db instead of the full 60db and avoid some preamp noise ... then i get 10db make up gain and 5db more at main output .. this is the best setting for the individual stages for low noise ... but it doesn't drive the compressor as hard ... (at 50db input gain)

i have set it for zero noise and if i had a quiter preamp ... well you know what would happen ...

... but wow i had no idea how good it could get ... i am one million percent satisfied ... although i do have one or two idea's up my sleeve ... :twisted:
i got one just moments ago looking at the R*yer disection with the neo frame... an improvement for the D-1c :grin: (which was good since the newest mic is so much better)

anyway .. My sincere thanks to all who helped my through understanding this 50 year old dead technology... thank God even poor people can get access to knowledge ... rbod i'd still like to get that book you suggested (the BBC mic book) ... and marik and others suggested some books but like i said i am poor.

Most importantly i would like to thank xvlk marik rodabod
xvlk for making me think even more differently than my "goofy/imaginitive" self does anyway ...
marik for so much patience and info in my early stages and
rbod for bringing so many things into crystal clarity ... and cheering me on through these last frustrating processes ....
SOWTER SOON hehe
and thanks to fum since i am using a donated trafo from him. yep still got it fum and one edcor (they sent me 2 on request .. but i need ot find sheilding for those)

also consul for making the MRC thread ... :thumb:
and zebra 50 for the, ever so entertaining, ribbon mic disection thread ..

AND PLEASE NOTE >>> thanks most of all for bearing with me and all this cofidential stuff

I PROMISE YOU it is killing me a thousand times worse than anyone ...

i also promise you the Lab will be the first place to know ..

OK? :wink: :thumb:


of course there will be audio clips ... let me get a cup of coffee ... and i'll see what i can do ...

again 1000 thanks sorry if i missed anyone ... (oh yeah hey El Fito you still out there? :grin

later
ts

 

[idylldon]

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]On this day 7:30 PM November 2 2005 i have created the Destroyer D-2b MkII

Dude, this thing even does time travel? A truly impressive mic.

:green:

BTW, I liked the sound samples.

Cheers,
--
Don

 

[ToobieSnack]

LOL thanks for the correction DECEMBER ...

i'm pretty beat here ... wish i could do some time travel ...

and if yo liked these samples ,,,just wait till i post the new ones!!! :green:
later
ts

 

[ToobieSnack]

hi and please excuse my excitement .. but .. i have just finished playing with the MkII (with the wider ribbon) and once again ... OH MY GOD! :shock:

not only is this a good mic ... or a great mic .. this is the best mic i have ever used in my life!!!

the Martin that sounded dull and un-appealing now sounded magic!
(and beleive me in real life .. sitting here in this room ... that Martin sounds like crap .. and i mean crap ..thin .... i was about to sell it)

ALSO: one thing i noticed... and ... try this .. tap around on a guitar top .. does i sound like wood? ... i mean ... does it REALLY sound like wood ...

i like to do rythmic taps on the guitars wood ... entwined with slap thumps with my thumb and some chords with the remaining fingers .. ... and NEVER .. NEVER have i had this come out this nice ...

i have a little blues'y thing that i will record that has this "tap" style and try to get up here so you can hear the sweet woody sound ..

another thing ... this mic is NOT picky about guitar/mic placement...
i mean i don' have to "AIM" it at any certain spot and stay pefectly still or anything ..
put the mic up about 2.5 feet away face straight toward the mic and play like there was no mic ... move around whatever ... i mean within sane limitations ..

i found myself listening to a "D" chord like i was hearing it for the first time .... A "D" CHORD!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who knows me knows i never play a straight "D" chord . it's always something really strange :twisted: ... hehe ...
but .. remember when you used to put you ear to your guitar and play ... YA! :grin: .. it's like being one with the instrument ... :grin:

i just don't know hat to say .. i am floored ...
i hope i can get this thing over to the college or the symphony rehearsal or something ... I'd be willing to lug my computer over there for that! hehe :grin:

anyway ... sorry for the delay .. i am just sooooo tired ,,(and i am having so much fun ... with my eyes barely open ) ..
anyway look for the new sond files tomorrow or the next day (have to hel p my sisiter move)

later
ts

 

[rodabod]

Toobie, I'm really excited and happy about your success with the D-2B. :grin: :razz:

It's always good to hear stuff like this.

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]hi and please excuse my excitement .. but .. i have just finished playing with the MkII (with the wider ribbon) and once again ... OH MY GOD! :shock:

ALSO: one thing i noticed... and ... try this .. tap around on a guitar top .. does i sound like wood? ... i mean ... does it REALLY sound like wood ...

This sounds promising. That's one thing I think you notice about a good ribbon mic - you hear the wood and less of the metallic strings on an acoustic guitar. :grin:

i have a little blues'y thing that i will record that has this "tap" style and try to get up here so you can hear the sweet woody sound ..

Yes! Send it to the GroupDIY email if you want me to host it.

another thing ... this mic is NOT picky about guitar/mic placement...
i mean i don' have to "AIM" it at any certain spot and stay pefectly still or anything ..
put the mic up about 2.5 feet away face straight toward the mic and play like there was no mic ... move around whatever ... i mean within sane limitations ..

That's all good. Some ribbons have a boomy proximity effect that is very pronounced and can be a bit annoying - it sounds as if yours has managed to avoid this. :wink:

Again, well done, man. I'm proud.

 

[ToobieSnack]

UPDATE:

hi all just letting you know i haven't forgotten ... here's what i have beeen doing ...

i planned on getting something recorded but i need to upgrade the shockmount .. made it a little beefier and more stable ..

well .. i had enough material too make 2 shockmounts and all the tools were already handy so .. i made a second shock mount .. well....

i now had 2 shock mounts and only one mic so...

i made a second mic ... i am using fum's trafo on one mic and an edcor on the second one ... sound is very similar (maybe exact but exact matching trafo's would be needed to determine )

one thing i really love is ... if you set up 2 mics at right angles .. one points downward to the guitar and the other points upward toward the voice ... well ... it is possible to record guitar and vocals at the same time and have excellent seperation of the 2 sound sources :grin:

i panned the mics hard left and right to see the results and wow :shock: very nice ... i'll pan the uplaods like this so it can be loaded into anyones DAW ...

anyway i'm getting to a sound clip and be sure to be sitting down when yo hear it .. i don't want to be respossible for any fainting or heart attacks LOL...

later
ts

 

[ToobieSnack]

hello :grin:

here is an audio clip of the MkII version of the d-2b....
the point of this sample is to show the nice natural reponse ..
the wood tones of a guitar are particularly hard to capture ...
give this a listen and tell me what you think ...

sorry for all the processing but this was just done very quickly ...i only used some light compression on the radius 50 and a little lexicon 200 plate 4 reverb AND NOTHING ELSE!
after hearing this experimental recording i have decided to back off on my compression on my radius unit to preserve some of the dynamics ... (and maybe the reverb too)

i was just eager to get something up so here it is ... I'll put up more later too (some nice PCM files)

i had previoulsy talked about a blues'y little number but decided .. hey... i am a modern guitarist so .. it took a little more modern approch to demonstrate the wood tones ..

it's pretty much self explanitory but ... let me say... please listen through headphones or a good monitoring system so you can hear the lows from the tapping of my hands on the wood surface of the guitar ..

anway here ya go CLICKHERE

i hope you enjoy it ... some one here said it would be a good background clip for a website :grin:

anyway i look forward to your comments..
later
ts

 

[rodabod]

Yet again, I'm very impressed.

You've clearly sorted out the noise issue with the wider ribbon.

The sound is great. Some ribbons are a bit "wooly" on the low end on acoustic but this is balanced nicely. It would be easier to hear it if it was dry, but you can still hear the tonal balance through the reverb.

The high-end is sounding smooth. The sound reminded me of the demo track on the Royer website for acoustic guitar:

(The MP3 at the bottom)

http://www.royerlabs.com/audiosamples.html#johnm

Similarly it is quite wet with reverb, but there is just something really nice about that sound.

Shit, it's about time that I started making a DIY ribbon mic from scratch, but I've got far too many other things to do! Maybe time to start reading the metas soon! Now, how can I make it original?......... Active!.... No..... Tube!..... Darn!..... Double ribbon!.... No..... Waterproof!.... Nope..... Fireproof!.... Oh dear.... I'll have to get my thinking cap out.