Ribbon mics : DIY or purchase ?

[Whoops]

My memory is not as good as it was, I think I've posted this here but I'm not sure.
If you would like to listen these mics used in recordings here are some examples:

I recorded the Piano on these songs with a spaced pair of TBone RB500, I also recorded a pair of Neumann U67, but Júlio the pianist choose only the RB500 in the final mix, so the U67 tracks were not used in the mix:






In this record from Cristina Branco called "Mãe",
the Piano sound is a mix from the pair of U67 and the pair of RB500, volume relation between the too would change depending on the song.
The Portuguese Guitar was recorded with a pair of Schoeps CMC5 close and a Tbone RM700 further away to give some space (distance and Fig8) and also some body (because it's much darker and has more low mids than the Schoeps), volume relation between the schoeps and RM700 would change depending on the song:

 

[jeremynothman]

RB500 is a pretty good mic on horns! I've also use my cheap TNC ribbons (royer style) on horns, piano and electric guitar. You have to watch out more that the player stays on axis than that the mic does a good job (and because of that, sometimes the combination of a cardioid SDC with a big ribbon is not a bad combo at all).
Sure, neither is an RCA or Melodium (better on vocals), a 4038 (better on overheads or cello), nor a real 121 (better on electric guitar), but both do just fine for 100euros.

If I didn't have these ribbons, I'd probably consider NoHypes or Bumblebeez, which both have the advantage of looking good.

 

[Whoops]

 

[Whoops]

 

[ElSmurf]

Found some comparison videos for the RB770. I really like how it makes the lows and low mids sing. Sounds very musical to my ears.

 

[Emmathom]

Hi guys, thank you for sharing these videos. Very interesting.

Post #21 @Whoops : nice job. I like the sound of the piano (and I like the music too !). RB500 is fine on these recordings. On the guitar, the RM700 (guitar ambiance) is nice too.

Post #23 @Whoops : of course there's difference between the t.bone / AEA / Coles but the RB500 is not ridiculous (but you really need to drop down lows and low mids). In this example I prefer is the AEA over the Coles by a small amount...

Post #24 @Whoops : RM700 does the job on the whole set indeed... and so on the blues acoustic guitar alone.

Post #25 @ElSmurf : on the first video I'm ok with the guy. I like the RM700 over the RB770 (and the SCT800 over the two others) but I like the RB100 too ! On classical guitar the RB770 alone is too boomy and thick. I like the combination with the Lewitt (which I like alone too). On the third example (guy with glasses) I'm not fan of the RB770 sound neither the way he played and recorded...

So my conclusion : t.bone makes amazing mics for the price (and not only !) You can use them straight from factory but they're also a very good base for DIY. I had been convinced of this for a while already.

About t.bone ribbon, I would not choose RB770 as my only one ribbon. RB500, RM700 and RB100 are really nice mics (got to buy the three of them ?).
Final choice I would go on RB500 at first purchase (which seems to be a recreation of APEX 210 http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Apex-Electronics/210)

 

[Whoops]

t.bone makes amazing mics for the price (and not only !) You can use them straight from factory

T.Bone is Thomann's own brand, they don't manufacture these ribbon mics.
In reality these are OEM ribbon mics from China that are sold around the world with different brands.

What sets the T.bone brand of mics apart from the other brands of the same mic is that although the mics come all from the same factory Thomann does their own quality control, and as it's the biggest music store in the world and order such big quantities they can pressure the Chinese factory to keep tolerances down and provide them a product that meets Thomann's standards.

The Chinese motors in general are pretty good, they're solid and with good magnets and well designed (or copied), well a ribbon mic motor is really simple anyway. The ribbon has proper corrugation also,
But normally the problem is that they don't pre-stretch (pre-tension) the ribbon before installing, so after a while in use the ribbon will get a bit loose and start sagging over time. Also when they install the ribbon they also don't normally tension it properly and mics coming out of the factory with Sag are common.

As far as I can see in the last years with T.Bone the mics come new with no sagging, so I suppose that or Thomann orders the factory to pre-stretch and tensions the ribbons properly for the mics they order, or Thomann rejects and returns and mic that has a sagging ribbon after they in house quality control.
Anyway with Thomann you are always secure because if a mic has sagging you can return it immediately and they arrange UPS to pick it up at your door, and send you a new one. You also have a 3 year warranty period.

Besides these advantages, for anyone living inside EU (but outside Germany), you can order from Thomann through a company and through someone that can deduct VAT and you don't pay VAT.
For Example:
The VAT in Portugal is 23%, The stock prices are 99€ for the RB500 and 109€ for the RM700, as my VAT number is tax exempt to pay VAT when ordering from another EU member when ordering from Thomann I pay 80,49€ for the RB500 and 88,6€ for the RM700, it's utterly cheap for some quality ribbon mics.

but they're also a very good base for DIY.

I like how they sound in stock form, I never felt any need to modify them.
I guess in terms of DIY you could change the transformer and install a thinner ribbon, although is hard to tension it properly at home.
Anyway even if you use them as a base for DIY they are still much better than the crappy "austin mics kits"

But as I said I'm very happy with them stock

 

[Whoops]

More info on the OEM Chinese Ribbon mics.
Like I said Quality control and Tolerance specs imposed by the reseller make all the difference:

http://recordinghacks.com/2008/11/01/chinese-ribbon-microphone-designs/

 

[Emmathom]

I like how they sound in stock form, I never felt any need to modify them.

I was referring to their all references. For example the SC1100 is a wonderful base for DIY because it's built like a tank, the headbasket is good sounding, there's a lot of space inside (to even install a ECCXX) and the OPT is not bad at all. I got a pair which I modified by changing the whole pre circuit and the capsule (Ari K47flat). I kept the OPT and the DC/DC board and this pair sounds really amazing (mostly thanx to Ari capsules). I woukd sat they can compete any multi-pattern mic far more expensive.

I also used two SC440 USB as a base for a tube mic (6AK5 tube) with a t.bone SC400 capsule which is not sibilant at all and very pleasant (20€)
These 2 projects have their own dedicated threads with picts, schematics, sound samples...

But as I said I'm very happy with them stock

Yes t.bone even stock versions are more than respectable mics

Regards

 

[leaf]

sure,
before I bought my affordable ribbon mics I bought 2 Kits of the "austin ribbon mic",
what I can share it that it was a complete waste of money, those kits are not well made and thought after.
The motor assembly is made of cheap plastic, the magnet should be glued to the plastic but after a while the magnets can get loose. It's also not easy to glue it properly.
And although I'm handy and was able to cut corrugate and install the ribbons, it's a difficult task and you will end up destroying 3 to 10 ribbons before you are able to install the first one, and then you might not even tension it properly.

In the end it was a lot of unnecessary work, a lot of time wasted and actually quite expensive in the end, for some mics that although might work I'm not secure I can depend on them.
There's already made affordable Ribbon mics that sound great, are cheaper and are solid.

My experience was completely different. Although I paid for the plans of the Austin Mics, the design is very forgiving. I wanted to challenge my DIY skills, and I learned a lot of lessons along the way. Rick at Austin Mics was very responsive to my questions. I say the build was forgiving because I know I didn't get everything right, yet, the resulting mic has mojo. It's so good on electric guitars and is a secret weapon as a drum room mic. I'm not sure which transformer you opted for. I went with the Cinemag CM-9987, and it's really nice.

Building from the plans is not easy, but I have to imagine the kits are much easier. There were many times during my build where I regretted not going with the kit, haha. Dealing with the magnets, the cutting of the foil, the install of the ribbons -- it's pretty intense.

Perhaps, instead of criticizing the Austin Mic, maybe you should consider that the DIY route was not right for you. For the second mic I am building, I opted for the Austin Mic ribbon motor kit. Everything seems well made, and I look forward to completing the second mic. I expect it will be a much easier process than the first (completely DIY effort).

 

[Whoops]

Perhaps, instead of criticizing the Austin Mic, maybe you should consider that the DIY route was not right for you.

You're completely wrong, and you should not make those assumptions when you are a newcomer to this forum, made no contributions whatsoever and you don't know other members, like myself.

I'm in this DIY forum for 16 years, since 2008, but my DIY adventures started much earlier, around year 2000.
DIY electronics is one of my favorite hobbies and I've built many of the classic projects in this forum, it's also something that allows me to make tools to be used in my professional career.
So yeah, I'm all for DIY.

The reality is that the so called "austin ribbon mic", contrary to the projects in GroupDIY,
it's not a well though project, it seems it was put together by a 13 years old child.
Basic and fundamental things were not taken into account, like a proper mount for the ribbon motor,
a solid construction for the ribbon motor (it's made of cheap plastic) and very flimsy.
Even the plastic motor structure is not well designed, there's not lock mount for the magnets, so they are only stuck to the plastic by glue, with no proper mount.

And for a very amateur and flimsy kit it's very very expensive, $279 with the standart Tx and $349 with the Cinemag Tx,
auch that's very expensive for this crap:




Here is the way the motor goes inside the grille,
there's no mount to secure the motor, it's just 2 foam pads that are supposed to "secure" it inside the grille, the motor itself is not attached to anything, so if you move the mic around the motor will get out of place and move inside the grille:





Check also the crappy ribbon motor:



compare the ribbon motor from this $279 kit,
with the ribbon motor from the T.Bone RM700 that costs $114:




The T.Bone has a proper Ribbon motor, it's mounted properly and secure, it's solid and dependable.

I have to do the best I can for this community that I love, and I can only share my past mistakes (buying the austin kits) with the community so that other people don't do the same mistakes.
So I don't advise the "austin ribbon mic" kit to anyone.

If someone wants to do a Ribbon DIY kit for fun then go for the "Bumblebee Pro" Kits,
those are solid and very well designed and built:

https://www.bumblebeepro.com/

 

[leaf]

I will stop short of suggesting you do anything, and edited my original post. However, my experience flies in the face of yours. Again, this is one of my best mics. And it was a rewarding experience as pretty much all of the diy projects I've done have been. You listed your bonafides, so I'll just say I have built DIY mics, mic pres, op amps, and other audio gadgets that I use in my small studio. I didn't know that being taken seriously requires being a long-time member of this forum.

I'm just curious, did you let Austin Mics know you weren't happy with your purchase? Did they say anything? Also, the ribbon motor in my mic is mounted sturdily enough that it does not move when I move the mic. The inner diameter of the head basket metal rolled tight enough is perfectly capable of supporting the ribbon motor in this design.

To the OP, if you want the experience of a DIY ribbon mic, which includes the not exactly easy task of cutting, corrugating, and installing a ribbon into a motor, the Austin Mic is a nice one.

If you want DIY-lite, the Bumble Bee seems to be the way to go.

If you want a ready-made, mass-produced, budget-priced product, all the ones Whoops mentions sound like good options for you.
You should also look into the Alder Audio H44 for something nicer (Again, not DIY).

 

[Emmathom]

Hi

I talked on the phone for a long time this morning to the manager of Nohypeaudio. He taught me that he also owned the NoHypeaudio brand and he is not just a dealer (since 2001). For informing, he distributes the Line Audio mics for Belgium.

Regarding his ribbon microphones, he is the conceptor of them. He assured me that if he indeed buys his elements from different suppliers, he takes care of the final assembly and the quality control before delivery to the end customer. It is therefore also an "electronics". He also entrusted me that at a time he was also repairing gear and received a lot of defective T. Bone Ribbon microphones. According to him, the quality of the T. Bone ribbon microphones is really poor ...

So, this information reinforces me to buy a CRM-1 (~250 € delivered in France / VAT included) rather than a t.Bone or an MXL.
I would trust more a "artisan" trying to do good work than any lamba chisese company (some exception for 3U Audio, 797Audio, etc...)
This choice only engages me of course ...

 

[Khron]

He also entrusted me that at a time he was also repairing gear and received a lot of defective T. Bone Ribbon microphones. According to him, the quality of the T. Bone ribbon microphones is really poor ...

... Not that he has any vested interest to point out that his products are better... And/but there's also a notable price difference, so there's that too.

(Yes, i know, i'm a cynical *******, and proud of it )

 

[Emmathom]

Well I prefer paying more (250€ vs 180€ for a "decent" cheap ribbon) and knowing my gear is carefuly tested & assembled and having a real after-sales service...

 

[Emmathom]

(Yes, i know, i'm a cynical *******, and proud of it )

we ALL know you are, don't worry

 

[mrchapp]

... Not that he has any vested interest to point out that his products are better... And/but there's also a notable price difference, so there's that too.

And the (non-)survival bias on the T.bones he received.

 

[silsila]

For what it’s worth I’ve been using 2 ribbon mics from nohype for about 8 years now. They are among the most useful mics in my collection. Everything you need a ribbon to be. I’ve been careful with them but they’ve been used on many sessions, with a pop filter where necessary. Jean Paul is a great guy too, straight up.
To be fair, my only experience with ribbons prior was an old Reslo.

 

[Emmathom]

For what it’s worth I’ve been using 2 ribbon mics from nohype for about 8 years now. They are among the most useful mics in my collection. Everything you need a ribbon to be. I’ve been careful with them but they’ve been used on many sessions, with a pop filter where necessary. Jean Paul is a great guy too, straight up.
To be fair, my only experience with ribbons prior was an old Reslo.

Thank you for this "vrai témoignage" I mean a real situation, not thoughts nor guess... I also felt that Jean Paul is a respectable guy, not a crook, and it feels pleasant to notice that meeting nice person can still happen nowadays... He's far from needing to lie to prepare his retreat I guess. Bye-bye t.bone ribbons, hello manufacturer's work

 

[silsila]

They were all over this track, drum overheads, flute and backing vocals.

I used them in grand piano and violin a little while ago on a job: