Safety question

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Rob Flinn

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Jun 3, 2004
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I'm in the uk where the mains is 230v.    I have a step down transformer which I use when I have to test 115v gear.  I have an RCD on my 230v feed which gives me a degree of safety.  However it occured to me that it wouldn't trip if a fault happened on the 115v side since it wouldn't notice a residual current difference.  I'm guessing the best way to do this would be to have an RCD on the 115v side.     

I then thought about how many of these transformers are in studios that I have been into in the UK & Europe.    SOme even have a dedicated 115v mains circuit through a larger step down transformer.   
 
> it wouldn't notice a residual current difference.

It would.

Draw it out.

RCD/GFI takes both power-carrying conductors. If all the power going out equals all the power coming back, there must be NO power sneaking through other unintended paths.

Do the experiment. Lacking a disposable live body, can you find a 10W-100W incandescent lamp? (CFL/LEDs get sick on bad voltage.) Wire the bulb to bare ends. Tie one to a known-good Earth terminal (power earth, not via audio earth). With clip-leads, connect the other side of the lamp to various "120V" points.

The 120V wire that is 120V away from earth WILL trip the RCB/GFI. (If not, you are not understanding the pinout.) Connection to the "120V" which is <1V away from Earth may-or-may-not trip an RCB. (Some GFIs will detect this, under certain situations, and trip.) Connection from 230V Earth to 120V Ground should be zero Voltage and no hazard, no trip.
 
OK, if you have a 2-winding transformer, the RCB/GFI will not trip, BUT you can freely touch any one live-wire on the secondary so there is no hazard.

230V-115V stepdowns are almost universally(*) wound as autotransformers, with some care taken to ensure both Neutrals come together. In that case the RCB works normally.

(*) I do know the UK market has an odd 230V to 110V CT transformer for construction sites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power#Europe
S170445_PTI.jpg
a shop
Watertight and sand-packed.The idea is  55V to dirt. testing guidelines with schematic, 220KB PDF

And the intent is that you can stand in mud and touch any frayed wire on your power tool and not become a burden to the medical appropriation. "Safe" for audio testing, but the CT on 110 aspect is quite unusual in US use. We are so accustomed to White being tied to Dirt somewhere, that a White floating 55V away from green gets by us, and sometimes with unexpected results. (There was a hi-fi gizmo with a W=G assumption, and a reviewer with "special" 120VCT power blew it up.)
 
John, in New Zealand, and probably in the UK, as most of our power ideas came from there, stepdown transformers are usually full transformers.
 
> in New Zealand

While researching, I read of a UK carpenter moving to Australia, asking if he should bring his 110V tools. The advice was "NO!", that the 110V construction tool thing was unknown in Aus, and would be banned by electric inspectors.

This does seem odd, because the 110V transfo maker says "Since the introduction of RLV systems in the 1960s, it is believed that no one has died purely as a result of an electric shock from an RLV supply." link to PDF. Maybe life is cheaper in Aus than NZ or UK?

The UK 110V site box is a full transformer but the secondary CT goes to Earth.
 
Interesting thought experiment.

GFCI and I ASSume RCD, use very similar technology. They null out the line current leaving with the neutral current returning. For US GFCI a current mismatch of > 5mA will trip the protection circuit and remove power.

You are correct that a fault across the secondary of the step down transformer (say a short to itself) will not register as a line neutral imbalance at the RCD. If you think about this, it is exactly the same thing as current leakage from line to neutral at the output of the RCD. It will ignore that too.  :eek:

Current leaking from the secondary side that returns to earth/neutral following some path other than flowing back through the step down transformer and the neutral contact at the output of the RCD will cause a current imbalance if it exceeds the several mA threshold.

This should be easy enough to confirm experimentally.  Be careful.

JR

PS: You could actually wire a 120V GFCI in series with your 120V secondary winding but it probably isn't necessary (GFCI will work without a ground connection). 
 
So basically sticking something like this between the step down transformer & the piece of gear would offer an extra degree of safety ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P-S-Trademaster-White-LIGHTED-15A-GFCI-Receptacle-Duplex-GFI-Outlet-5-15R-1595-W-/182360687766?hash=item2a758b4496:g:dfUAAOSwHMJYMh1Y

The reason I'm asking is because quite often when I have to do this it's a piece of valve (tube) gear, which quie often has the mains on screw terminals on the back etc & withe the HT voltages present safety is always more of a concern.
 
Aussies are not very good with power. Over here we have a plug called a tapon, which is a standard plug with a standard socket on the back. Invented in NZ I think, and very useful! The Aussies started using them by wiring two on either end of a cord so they could liven other things! Killed a few, and the Aussie authorities declared that you could not buy them anymore, except on moulded cables.
 
Rob Flinn said:
So basically sticking something like this between the step down transformer & the piece of gear would offer an extra degree of safety ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P-S-Trademaster-White-LIGHTED-15A-GFCI-Receptacle-Duplex-GFI-Outlet-5-15R-1595-W-/182360687766?hash=item2a758b4496:g:dfUAAOSwHMJYMh1Y

The reason I'm asking is because quite often when I have to do this it's a piece of valve (tube) gear, which quie often has the mains on screw terminals on the back etc & withe the HT voltages present safety is always more of a concern.
Yes, but it is unclear you are not protected already by the RCD.

I would try a simple experiment first (carefully).  10-20mA draw (4.7K?) from the 120V secondary to a different ground, should reveal if it is protecting or not.

Trust but verify.  8)

JR

[edit- modern GFCI outlets sold in the US have an automatic self test feature, that model does not mention.... Perhaps some older inventory (or just didn't mention). Will not matter for your needs.  [/edit]
 
> sticking something like this

That's a standard US/Can GFI outlet. We have them in bath, kitchen, and porch outlets. $15-$20 any home store. That particular one is "15A". There is also a "20A" (15A/20A) model where one slot is a "Tee". The associated 20A plug is nearly unknown and causes some confusion.

Yeah, put one on if it makes you feel better. I do! I can attest that they usually work, a very slight tingle and the outlet goes dead. I'm also seeing 10% defective out of the box. In damp work they cut-out a lot (as they should-- they can't know damp mud from damp flesh).

I had thought you would have a problem getting one in the UK. I can't easily buy UK gear here. The shops are not set up for non-UK sales. But I see that eBay sellers don't care where it goes, if they can figure shipping and get paid.

Read the instructions! Ask here if confused! Do you know if you can score a box to fit it in?

You can also buy GFI as "extension cords", plug-in, no wiring.
Very heavy-duty example
Many of these are over-priced and do not ship outside US??
lump, low price, ships out of US
another, bad picture
 
PRR said:
The associated 20A plug is nearly unknown and causes some confusion.

I wouldn't say "nearly unknown", unless we are talking about household items and appliances, save the occasional large window air conditioner.

Medium sized power amps for the pro industry use the 20A plug often. And I have yet to buy a used one of these amps that started out with the horizontal neutral, where someone hasn't taken a pair of pliers and twisted it 90 degrees to fit a 15A socket.

Gene




 
So John the answer to your question is that a 4k7 between live & ground on the secondary side of this particular transformer does NOT trip the rcd.    This may be that the trafo is not an autoformer.  It's not my transformer (I still need to get mine out of storage  to my new workshop).    I think what I may do is install my transformer with a US GFI socket on the bench, so I have a dedicated 115v supply that is as safe as I can make it.
 
Rob Flinn said:
So John the answer to your question is that a 4k7 between live & ground on the secondary side of this particular transformer does NOT trip the rcd. 
Which ground?

If the load is connected across the transformer winding, the load current returns back through the transformer to neutral so will not trip protection.

If the low side of the 120v transformer secondary is grounded, any current leaking back to that same ground path will stay within the RCD loop and not trip the RCD.  For the RCD to work the low side of the transformer secondary should be connected to mains neutral, and the load to an external ground.

  This may be that the trafo is not an autoformer.  It's not my transformer (I still need to get mine out of storage  to my new workshop).    I think what I may do is install my transformer with a US GFI socket on the bench, so I have a dedicated 115v supply that is as safe as I can make it.
yup, auto-former has common neutral connection.

I am not familiar with typical RCD current thresholds. According to wiki current thresholds are 5mA-30mA... 30mA at the primary of a 2:1 step down transformer is 60mA (max) at secondary, so more like 2k ohm or less from that 120V to external ground worst case. Unless you know the current threshold for your particular RCD is closer to typical 5mA (so 10mA should work).

Adding a dedicated 120V GFCI is easier than thinking about all this, but still think (hope?) the RCD should work.

If you want to keep the 120V fully isolated from the mains neutral you will need a dedicated GFCI for that 120V loop.  That fake floating 120v neutral should be bonded to ground just like an electrical sub panel, but not exactly like a sub panel, and as a bench box you can do whatever you want (just be careful please 120V can still kill you)..  :eek:

Note if you bond the 120V floating neutral to ground & 230V neutral the 230V RCD function will not be reliable, so don't do that.  :eek:

Connecting the floating 120V neutral to 230V neutral with the 120v safety ground just telescoped through back to the 230v panel ground should be safest,  ;D adding a GFCI to the 120v loop will be even safer.  8)

JR
 
> not familiar with typical RCD current thresholds.

Why I suggested a 10W lamp rather than a several-K resistor. Incandescent lamp will surely exceed any life-safety threshold. If it trips that way, we ass-ume it will trip at whatever the local authorities consider "safe".

The US GFI curve runs from fast-trip >50mA to slow-trip at 5mA. I have not been sure if the higher numbers on UK RCBs are really higher or taken at the fast-trip end of the curve. Hmmm.... a 7 Watt X-mas bulb rated 230V is only 30mA, so better aim at 25W. (I'd be frightened to grab 120V through a 25W lamp, but with my 120V lamps it is a higher current.)
 
Rob Flinn said:
I think what I may do is install my transformer with a US GFI socket on the bench, so I have a dedicated 115v supply that is as safe as I can make it.

This is for your on safety the best , or let somebody else do it ...

On 2 separate windings you will not have a loop to ground if you hit 1 wire on the secondary side ...
 
Evertide said:
This is for your on safety the best , or let somebody else do it ...

On 2 separate windings you will not have a loop to ground if you hit 1 wire on the secondary side ...

I think that is why we use RCD's here.  My understanding is that they trip if the current on the live doesn't match the current on the neutral, because normally they should be in balance so if one is different to the other it would indicate a fault. 
 
> trip if the current on the live doesn't match the current on the neutral

You got it!

Which makes the UK term "RCB", RESIDUAL Current Breaker, more descriptive than US's GFI (GROUND Fault Interrupter).

The actual goal is to add (observing polarity) the two wire currents to get a "residual". If this residual is not ZERO, there is a leak.

Like if you ran a Fun House. If 20 kids go in, 19 kids come out, you lost one. If 20 in and 21 out, again there is a problem. Kids can get lost (or hide) inside, electricity won't do that. Kids can leak in or out the back door, electricity will also.

Realize though that "line" and "neutral" are meaningless tags. There is no true Neutral in (most) lighting and small appliance circuits. There is a general assumption that one of the two Load Current Carrying wires is tied to dirt somewhere, but that assumption is not in the RCB/GFI.

Internally, both load wires thread through one magnetic core. Out-of-phase. If their currents are EQUAL, the core has ZERO flux. This can be done with remarkable precision. We readily resolve a 0.005A unbalance on a 15A current.

Note that all these leaks require a "return path". Electricity won't leak off a wire unless it has a place to go. Some leakage may be harmless. The RCB/GFI takes the worst-case assumption that it leaks through a person to some return associated with the electric supply (dirt is everywhere).
 
With that in mind would it be better to fit an RCD on the 115v secondary rather than a Ground leakage type ?  That way there is no need for the breaker to be tied in with Earth for it to trip since presumably it doesn't need references to Earth or anything on the primary side to operate.

By the way as far as I'm aware Neutral in the UK is tied to ground at the Power station.  However it can have a bit of induced a.c on it by the time it gets to ones house.
 
Rob Flinn said:
With that in mind would it be better to fit an RCD on the 115v secondary rather than a Ground leakage type ?  That way there is no need for the breaker to be tied in with Earth for it to trip since presumably it doesn't need references to Earth or anything on the primary side to operate.
The GFCI (while perhaps poorly named) does not measure ground leakage or need a ground connection.

As PRR just shared the line and neutral windings (perhaps only one turn each, in opposite directions) create an equal but opposite magnetic flux in a magnetic core that nulls out, as long as Line current and Neutral current are exactly equal. Any imbalance between the two currents shows up as a magnetic flux that can be detected with another very sensitive winding on that same core.

If the line current does NOT exactly equal the neutral current that is "the" problem. At >5mA imbalance it disconnects power. 

In fact it does not have to leak to line to ground, it can leak line to neutral somewhere upstream of, or outside the local current sensing loop. You can even trip a GFCI with a bootleg ground to neutral short, where some of the neutral current flows into the ground and creates the imbalance. (bootleg neutral to ground shunts are also code violations).  All the GFCI cares about is does the current leaving the protected outlet exactly equal the current coming back in.

I put two GFCI outlets in my house (bathroom and kitchen) replacing ungrounded 2-pin Edisons,  with ungrounded 3-pin GFCI receptacles. The GFCI works fine without a ground connection, and this is advised for old 2 circuit wired houses (like mine) for rooms where water and electricity can be present  (this morning I put a GFCI in my laundry room.) 
By the way as far as I'm aware Neutral in the UK is tied to ground at the Power station.  However it can have a bit of induced a.c on it by the time it gets to ones house.
US code bonds ground to neutral one time at the power drop or fuse box.

Power distribution for most US residences comes from a center-tapped transformer winding. The step down transformer steps down the high distribution voltage on the power poles to 230VAC total or two opposite polarity 115V legs (wrt the center-tap). This center tap is also bonded to neutral and ground at the panel/fuse box. 115v branches grab one leg or the other, 230v appliances bridge across the entire winding (230V is two hot legs and no neutral, 115V is one hot and neutral).

It is a code violation to connect ground to neutral anywhere else inside the building,  while there are code variations for sub-panels that get treated like a separate power drop.

Don't over think this.... your RCD will probably work if the secondary of your step-down transformer is bonded back to neutral, and the leakage current goes anywhere else other than that same neutral (which is inside the RCD current loop). 

Of course adding an extra GFCI in series with the floating step-down secondary winding will also work.


JR

PS: I have seen specialty line cord plugs that sense for current in the ground, but this redundant with GFCI/RCD.

PPS: About 2 years ago I developed a specialty back-line power protection device for musicians to use on stage with dodgy power amps and perhaps dodgy energized microphone grounds (I probably talked about it here). In addition to a GFCI, with touch switch to turn it on that sensed for correct line/neutral polarity, I also detected for current flowing in the safety ground from an external power source. This way I protected the musician from 1: mis-wired stage outlets, 2: legacy (old) guitar amps with bad stinger caps and energized chassis, or 3: energized mic grounds from mis-wired console power outlets. 

I abandoned this as too expensive/complicated for a customer base that is more comfortable just cutting off ground pins from their plugs, and dealing with UL approval that would probably take several thousand dollars worth of convincing for a product I would only sell two a year of to cheap musicians.  :eek:

 
 
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