Separated by a common language/humour?

[DaveP]

Yesterday, I managed to upset some members because they took me seriously instead of realising I was joking, this was the offending post in the Trump Thread: http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=60036.160

"Political Correctness has permeated this thread.

Used to be that obese people were just plain fat, now there is a move to call them something less descriptive  like weight challenged or BS like that.

People used to be just dumb (US version of word, UK version means unable to speak) now they are low information.

Whatever next!

DaveP

Do Americans use/understand the phrases "Tongue in cheek" and "Pulling your leg" ?????

In fact I was pulling the leg (mild teasing) of our poor long suffering moderator JR for his use of the Americanism "Low information voters"

I thought the emoticons and the quaint exclamation "whatever next!" would give sufficient clues as to it being a joke, unfortunately some members thought it was an attack on the very heart of Group DIY.

Irony is very common in English, people often say "great" when everything has gone wrong.

Michael Jackson said" I'm bad" when he meant good.  Youngsters say "sick" when they mean good,  is our humour so hard to understand?

You seem to keep inviting back Ricky Gervais to insult you, so you can see why I'm surprised.

Please give feedback, I don't want to repeat the mistake.

Best
DaveP

 

[Ethan]

Do Americans use/understand the phrases "Tongue in cheek" and "Pulling your leg" ?????

Yes.

Ironic expression and sarcasm may be as common in Americanish as it is in English, but in my interaction with Brit friends, it seems the biggest differences are in context and delivery.  Brits often use sarcasm where 'Muricans typically wouldn't expect it. Also, using your previous example of a sarcastic "great". My British friends might offer a short, and sharp "great" as if to punctuate the preceding statement. An American would likely elongate the word to clearly indicate that sarcasm was intended rather than insult, "greaaaat~".

We have GroupDIYers from all around the word that speak many different languages. Despite some language barriers, I think we do a pretty good job being understanding of unintended offenses. Conveying humor through text on a screen will always be tough, even in the same language.

 

[rob_gould]

Yep, echoing what Ethan said I think the biggest problem is that it's very hard to read the intended tone of a sentence off a computer screen.

It's not too much of an issue when discussing resistor values, but when the topic gets a bit more emotionally charged  then misinterpretation can start to creep in!

To be honest Dave, your post certainly didn't upset or offend me - to be honest it really didn't register as having any particular tone when I first read it.  But reading back, perhaps if it'd been directed at me I might have struggled to judge whether it was jokey or a little bit shirty.  No criticism of how it was constructed - just an example of how hard it is to convey quite specific emotions in four lines of text on an internet forum...

 

[Rochey]

Dave,

I've lived in the US for almost 10 years now. (originally from Wales). My experience here has only been in the south (Texas) - so I may be off base a little.

There is a definite divide/misunderstanding in the sarcasm/humour between both places. I figured I'd bullet point my thoughts, as I still haven't woken up enough to provide well formed sentences.

The british method of showing friendship is to truly take the mick out of someone (to be sarcastic), with the full expectation that you'll get a witty retort. If you don't like someone, you wouldn't say a word to them.
The Americans have no idea how to handle that. Most take it as a direct insult, and aren't practiced enough, or don't know how to respond to such an "attack".

Americans struggle to read sarcasm (language, tone, body language). I suspect this comes from two places -
1 - Diversity in Culture and Language. Americans come from a widely diverse background - Asians, Europeans, Africans, all come together in one boiling pot.  Different backgrounds, different expectations.
2 - A lot of humor is based on pointing out the differences between one person/opinion/behavior and another. Given their diversity and ugly background with civil rights, Americans are taught from childhood these days that differences shouldn't be pointed out in public, as pointing these differences out are more likely to upset people than they are to help people stand out (in a positive way).

As my American wife scolds me for some of my humour --- "It's only funny if both people laugh!"

 

[bernbrue]

Hi Dave,
I wouldn't take it too seriously. My neighbor is British and he has exactly the sense of humour you are talking about and which I really like.  I've read your statements in the other thread and honestly I can't see any personal offence or any reason at all why people are upset. Just go on and enlighten us with your fantastic threads and projects.
Best
Bernd

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yesterday, I managed to upset some members because they took me seriously instead of realising I was joking, this was the offending post in the Trump Thread: http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=60036.160

"Political Correctness has permeated this thread.

Used to be that obese people were just plain fat, now there is a move to call them something less descriptive  like weight challenged or BS like that.

People used to be just dumb (US version of word, UK version means unable to speak) now they are low information.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about?

Just to be clear, what I call "low information voters" is pejorative but not attacking their intelligence, more about attacking their failure to attempt to be adequately informed about multiple topics (politics, economics, world events). More people today get their current events from late night talk show monologues than reading objective news sources. Arguably even the standard TV news is not completely objective with a selective bias toward sensational stories scary (death-disease), greedy (lottery), celebrity (what some star thinks), etc.  In my judgement some politicians pander to these low information voters because they can, and it works. 

Whatever next!

DaveP

Do Americans use/understand the phrases "Tongue in cheek" and "Pulling your leg" ?????

most do in conversation, but written text can lack verbal inflection.  Emoticons are supposed to telegraph "emotion" but are still limited in that capability. Perhaps we need to create some new emoticons? 

In fact I was pulling the leg (mild teasing) of our poor long suffering moderator JR for his use of the Americanism "Low information voters"

JR spends way too much time in threads like that... many posters are (seem) deadly serious, and IMO often (seem) wrong, but life is too short to wrestle every one to the ground. We all have different life experiences so can draw difference conclusions about similar circumstances.

I thought the emoticons and the quaint exclamation "whatever next!" would give sufficient clues as to it being a joke, unfortunately some members thought it was an attack on the very heart of Group DIY.

perhaps say that you are kidding... I have even done that.

Irony is very common in English, people often say "great" when everything has gone wrong.

There is a pop song "Ironic" that isn't really about irony.

Michael Jackson said" I'm bad" when he meant good.  Youngsters say "sick" when they mean good,  is our humour so hard to understand?

You seem to keep inviting back Ricky Gervais to insult you, so you can see why I'm surprised.

Ricky who?  Ever heard of Don Rickles? Insult comics are probably older than Rickles (he's old).  I thought the original British Gervais show (office) was brilliant, but I don't understand the success of the US version.  Ricky does the snarky insult humor well, but I can't stand to watch those awards shows where rich celebrities pat each other on the butt.

Please give feedback, I don't want to repeat the mistake.

Best
DaveP

This the the brewery... no foul that I perceive...

JR

PS: I guess low information voters would consider my comments offensive, but if they are following these threads they are no longer un-informed.... problem solved.  8)

 

[JohnRoberts]

Dave,

I've lived in the US for almost 10 years now. (originally from Wales). My experience here has only been in the south (Texas) - so I may be off base a little.

I have lived in several different regions of US... grew up in north east, spent time in KS, GA, and now about 30 years in deep south.

There are dramatic cultural differences between different parts of the US (including TX).

There is a definite divide/misunderstanding in the sarcasm/humour between both places. I figured I'd bullet point my thoughts, as I still haven't woken up enough to provide well formed sentences.

The british method of showing friendship is to truly take the mick out of someone (to be sarcastic), with the full expectation that you'll get a witty retort. If you don't like someone, you wouldn't say a word to them.
The Americans have no idea how to handle that. Most take it as a direct insult, and aren't practiced enough, or don't know how to respond to such an "attack".

I've seen some of this from Aussies too,,, but their humor is somewhat influenced by Brit humor (I suspect).

Americans struggle to read sarcasm (language, tone, body language). I suspect this comes from two places -
1 - Diversity in Culture and Language. Americans come from a widely diverse background - Asians, Europeans, Africans, all come together in one boiling pot.  Different backgrounds, different expectations.
2 - A lot of humor is based on pointing out the differences between one person/opinion/behavior and another. Given their diversity and ugly background with civil rights, Americans are taught from childhood these days that differences shouldn't be pointed out in public, as pointing these differences out are more likely to upset people than they are to help people stand out (in a positive way).

As my American wife scolds me for some of my humour --- "It's only funny if both people laugh!"

It can still be funny to you...  ;D  Coincidentally I got in some hot water with my British reps back while working at Peavey, they didn't get my humor at first (many people still don't).  After they figured me out we were tight.  ;D Similar problems bonding with german reps, etc. There can be a fine line between mean and funny, the receiver has to understand your intent is not to insult them.

Before I travelled to HK and China I actually bought and read a book on the subject of our cultural differences. The older I get the less I care, but it's ineffective to hurt people or make them angry for no reason.

JR

PS; Lets not get started on generational differences.  :

 

[Rochey]

There can be a fine line between mean and funny, the receiver has to understand your intent is not to insult them.

Nailed It.

 

[mattiasNYC]

In case this was indirectly directed (!) at me or if anyone cares about my opinion (why should you???).....

There are three issues I see here:

1) Does the receiver have a sense of humor? (that allows them to pick up on ironic jokes)
2) Does the sender have a sense of humor? (i.e. was it funny to begin with)
3) What was the context in which the joke was made?

For the first issue I would submit that people in western culture generally understand irony quite well, as a concept. I would say that the difference between "getting it" or not is tied closer to personality type than anything else really. Of course there will be regional differences, but they may be more dependent on the subject matter and how it is normally discussed rather than an ability to "get" the joke.

That brings us to the third point, and we can skip the second, because it's self-explanatory.

So what are examples of contexts that lend themselves to a  successful irony-joke or not? Well, an obvious one would perhaps be you walking down the street talking to your friend, a car driving past you through a puddle splashing water in your mouth after which you say "Great, I was thirsty anyway" or whatever. The degree to which that's funny is debatable, but it's pretty clear given the context that it was irony. An example of the opposite would perhaps be delivering an ironic joke to your new girlfriends family the first time you meet them at the first dinner... the joke is about how great suicide is, and one family member just committed suicide the week before. In this case the joke might be taken as a joke, but if it's said with enough of a straight face it might not. It might be taken as someone genuinely thinking it's a great solution. So, context matters.

Now, as for your particular case the issue is the latter, and you conveniently leave out context. The context was that you (if I remember correctly) brought up being politically correct as essentially a negative. In other words, people feel that they can't speak the truth because it isn't "proper" to do so, and speaking said truth yields negative comments not about the truth itself, but about the fact that it was said. In and by itself that may or may not be true in any given case, but some of us disagree that this is a general problem on a broader level. We disagree because we perceive a great deal of negative expression on issues where being PC then whould have thwarted said expression.

The second thing you spoke about was immigration. Your views on immigration, or "multiculturalism" as it's popularly called in some circles, paint you, broadly speaking, to the right of the political center, when it comes to such issues. Given the current European climate on this issue, and your statements, I'd say that's a fair depiction of your stance, albeit quite general.

Thirdly, the discussion shifted quickly to Muslims specifically, and what was brought up by more than one person was that we a) can't generalize the group based on the actions of a minority, and b) that other sub-sets of western cultures get a "free pass" when they too are guilty of the same or similarly negative behavior.

THEN you made the joke.

So, in that context, it isn't at all obvious that you were joking. In that context you could very well have been having a bad day with too much wine and you finally had enough with political correctness actually making its way into this forum.

A maybe more simple and logical way of describing it:

If Frank has view X, and he says Y, and X and Y are opposites, we can conclude he is joking.
If Frank appears to have view Y, says Y, then how do we know he is joking?

 

[Andy Peters]

The british method of showing friendship is to truly take the mick out of someone (to be sarcastic), with the full expectation that you'll get a witty retort. If you don't like someone, you wouldn't say a word to them.
The Americans have no idea how to handle that. Most take it as a direct insult, and aren't practiced enough, or don't know how to respond to such an "attack".

When you visit New York City and someone yells at you, "Hey, buddy, FUCK YOU!" that person is really saying, "Good morning!"

-a

 

[DaveP]

Matt,

Firstly, the context was the whole thread, not the issues that surrounded that particular post, that is where you lost the plot, not your fault though, you could be humouristically challenged mate.

Secondly, it was not directed at you, but poor JR and his term low information voters which I find amusing.  Sorry if I shouldn't :

Thirdly, I do find it weird when we scrabble around for bizarre phrases that describe people without causing offence, it is the very opposite of the term calling a spade a spade.  It is the truth that dare not speak it's name.

In some local councils in England they found a big problem with black bin bags (for refuse collection).  Some  politically correct bright spark came up with the idea that equating rubbish with the colour black was insulting, so they started issuing grey ones.
Unfortunately, this upset all the grey people, (that was a joke, you may laugh at will).  This is where the material for the Gervais "Office"series came from, local councils trying to out do each other with their Political Correctness Quotient.

My views on immigration are based on common sense and practicality.  They are basically that the rate of immigration should equal the rate of assimilation.  This will vary from country to country, in the US you have more space than the UK which has a much higher population density and is for all intents and purposes full up.  This causes a chronic housing shortage and building land shortage which forces people into poverty through ridiculous rents, for me it is not a racial issue unless they think it's OK to abuse women and girls.  If that put's me right of centre in your eyes then so be it.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

The british method of showing friendship is to truly take the mick out of someone (to be sarcastic), with the full expectation that you'll get a witty retort. If you don't like someone, you wouldn't say a word to them.
The Americans have no idea how to handle that. Most take it as a direct insult, and aren't practiced enough, or don't know how to respond to such an "attack".

When you visit New York City and someone yells at you, "Hey, buddy, f**k YOU!" that person is really saying, "Good morning!"

-a

And in the deep south when a stranger smiles at you and says good morning they actually mean F**K YOU.... (now that's irony).

In the deep south a passive aggressive cultural practice is to wave to strangers, if they are local it is bad form to not wave back.  Up north if you wave to strangers they think you're in trouble, or maybe warning them about traffic radar,,,  ;D

Local cultures can be amusing.

JR

 

[Bowie]

The british method of showing friendship is to truly take the mick out of someone (to be sarcastic), with the full expectation that you'll get a witty retort. If you don't like someone, you wouldn't say a word to them.
The Americans have no idea how to handle that. Most take it as a direct insult, and aren't practiced enough, or don't know how to respond to such an "attack".

I can't relate to that at all.  Maybe it was the area you lived in or it could be a generational thing but I've know Americans of my generation (people currently in their 30's and 40's) to rib each other quite often, sometimes viciously, and without worry of offending.  I think more than half of the text messages on my phone are good-natured jabs between friends.  I often even joke with strangers in social settings (in a 'taking the piss' sort of manner) and never had anyone respond in a defensive way or act as if they were attached.  Again though, it could be a situational thing.  Americans are frequently being shown TV representations of folks from the UK speaking poorly of them.  If you were a Brit in America, ripping into people, they might not think of it as a joke but more of a, "Wow, they really are pricks!" 

 

[mattiasNYC]

Matt,

Firstly, the context was the whole thread, not the issues that surrounded that particular post, that is where you lost the plot, not your fault though, you could be humouristically challenged mate.

Secondly, it was not directed at you, but poor JR and his term low information voters which I find amusing.  Sorry if I shouldn't :

Hard to know who it's directed at without a quote in your post. I don't find it particularly funny though, so I'm going to go ahead and proclaim that it is you who are "humouristically challenged, mate".

Thirdly, I do find it weird when we scrabble around for bizarre phrases that describe people without causing offence, it is the very opposite of the term calling a spade a spade.  It is the truth that dare not speak it's name.

How's that generally "weird"? Most people have at best an average IQ. The amount of people I've seen and heard and met in my life that were obvious idiots, obviously ignorant or just obviously a-holes is mind-numbing. That doesn't mean I call them [spade] whenever I actually want to. And I don't necessarily avoid offending them because I think they deserve not to be offended, or because I don't think I have the right to offend them, but rather because it's the intelligent thing to do in many circumstances.

I mean, take for example people who we'd previously call "fat". It used to be that in some places being fat and pale meant you had money and didn't have to do menial labor. Then things changed. We now know it's unhealthy and fashion has promoted slenderness as well. Ok, so "fat" today is a pejorative term. Call someone fat ([spade]) and see how well that works out. Even calling them obese might be a problem. So, what's the best way of communicating the benefits of weight loss with a person like that? Surely it isn't calling them "fat". And so it goes.

But yeah, I agree that in some cases a spade is a spade. I think Islam sucks for the same reasons I think the other two big religions suck. In some circles people will complain about not being able to criticize Islam without being called names or whatever, yet the very same people will be offended when their religion is similarly criticized. So the only thing to do is to have an open discussion about it then. But in addition to "Politically Correct" being about avoiding some terms and using others, it also includes the message. So, in other words, if one tries to put the criticism and fear of Islam into context by making comparisons the very same defense is used, that the criticism is nothing but political correctness. So that hypocrisy really just dilutes the term to the point of it being about as meaningless as "conspiracy".

My views on immigration are based on common sense and practicality.  They are basically that the rate of immigration should equal the rate of assimilation.  This will vary from country to country, in the US you have more space than the UK which has a much higher population density and is for all intents and purposes full up.  This causes a chronic housing shortage and building land shortage which forces people into poverty through ridiculous rents, for me it is not a racial issue unless they think it's OK to abuse women and girls.  If that put's me right of centre in your eyes then so be it.

DaveP

I brought it up because in context it seemed like your "joke" wasn't necessarily a "joke".

I take it "comedian" isn't your day-gig...

 

[DaveP]

An interesting and informative set of replies reflecting the diversity of people's experience, thanks.

Just for the record, I will never knowingly try to insult anyone on this forum, but I will argue my corner.

As has been pointed out, comedian is not my day job, :'(  I wish I was an Andy Peters or a CJ, but I ain't, so if I get around to making any more "jokes" I will take JR's advice and signal them up,  ;D so that high humour threshold members are not discriminated against. ;D

Best
DaveP

 

[johnheath]

If I may…

I am from Sweden and here we start learning english from third grade and then it is a strict british english for some reason I do not know. I have been abroad for long period of times and I have picked up words and sentences from all over due to english speaking conversations.

From a swedish point of view I consider myself to handle english pretty good even though I know that I have a lot to learn to master all the nuances particularly when people are joking or being angry and upset…

But I must say that on this forum I feel that you native english speaking people have a lot of patience with us "dumb" people like myself that sometimes has to look everything up in a dictionary especially when it comes down to technical terms and descriptions.

And I have been a member on other forums where people are very anal about the language and it is hellish for a guy like me. So please do not start arguing about it here… you are basically great all of you.

Peace

/John

 

[Bowie]

If I may…

I am from Sweden and here we start learning english from third grade and then it is a strict british english for some reason I do not know. I have been abroad for long period of times and I have picked up words and sentences from all over due to english speaking conversations.

From a swedish point of view I consider myself to handle english pretty good even though I know that I have a lot to learn to master all the nuances particularly when people are joking or being angry and upset…

But I must say that on this forum I feel that you native english speaking people have a lot of patience with us "dumb" people like myself that sometimes has to look everything up in a dictionary especially when it comes down to technical terms and descriptions.

And I have been a member on other forums where people are very anal about the language and it is hellish for a guy like me. So please do not start arguing about it here… you are basically great all of you.

Peace

/John

For what it's worth, I'm continually amazed by the fantastic English I see in emails from many of my customers in European countries like Sweden, Norway, etc.  Yours is excellent as well.  When I receive an email with no grammar as such, something that looks more like a text message, I assume the customer is American, possibly British.  I don't say that in a snarky, self-deprecating American sort of way.  Simply that many in this country have begun to communicate almost entirely through phones and there is a deterioration of the language that goes along with that.  I won't bemoan it or put anyone down, but I will say that you many of you folks who feel concerned about your English have no idea just how articulate you actually are.

 

[Krcwell]

American, work for a British company in the states. It took me a little bit to get acquainted with the subset of British humour (I even included the unnecessary "u") that is just extremely dry/deadpan. Comparatively, American humor is delivered in a much more obvious manner; it goes for the laugh. British humour can tend to go more for the irony, not an obvious "ha-ha" laugh type joke.

For a while I thought all the Brits at work were kinda being a-holes, but it turns out I just didn't pick up the humour. It doesn't come across as funny until you get accustomed to it. I think there could be a potential cultural barrier in how we identify someone is joking. Americans will usually provide obvious clues that they are joking, whereas not being obvious is part of the joke for Brits.

Hopefully nobody thinks I am stereotyping. Thanks.

 

[DaveP]

But I must say that on this forum I feel that you native english speaking people have a lot of patience with us "dumb" people like myself that sometimes has to look everything up in a dictionary especially when it comes down to technical terms and descriptions.

Johnheath,

It is not so much patience that we have for you, as great respect that you are so good at English  yet we are useless at your languages

Det är inte så mycket tålamod som vi har med dig, så stor respekt som ni är så bra på engelska men vi är värdelösa på ditt språk

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

But I must say that on this forum I feel that you native English speaking people have a lot of patience with us "dumb" people like myself that sometimes has to look everything up in a dictionary especially when it comes down to technical terms and descriptions.

Personally I am in awe of the posters on this forum for whom English is not their native tongue. Sure, some of their expressions are quite amusing, but that only brings home the fact that most Brits cannot speak/write/understand any other language, myself included.

My New Year's resolution is to learn German, mainly because so much interesting tube audio stuff is written in it. I have purchased Handbuch fur Tonstudiotechnik which I plan to work trhough from start to finish.

Cheers

Ian