Service issue ,legal opinion required

[Tubetec]

I have an acoustic vocal combo amp in for repair. Ive tried emailing the manufacturer for a schematic, so far the reply is 'we dont give out schematics for equipment thats still in production' .
He's now forwarding my query to my local supplier , I did contact this guy before regarding the same brand of equipment,was offered a replacement main board at a about 2/3 the cost of the amplifier brand new ,but no service documents.
Im just wondering is there any legal requirement for manufacturers to hand over service details ,schematics etc.
Until I find out if the issue can be resolved I wont mention the brand ,but if its unresolved Im taking off the gloves on this one.
Not only that but im my workshop over the years I've recomended and fitted litterally hundreds of this companies on board acoustic preamps .
Ive heard before that manufacturers had a duty under law in the EU to provide proper service documentation.
Be great if anyone has a clue on the legal side of things ,
Cheers,

 

[Tubetec]

Theres a Scandinavian company who dont readily pass out service data ,
When I made a request for service data before ,next day I was sent out a small form to sign ,saying that I undertook not to post or distribute their information ,which is fair enough, I had to fax this back to HQ, next day a cd rom with their entire service data for all products arrived by special delivery.
Im simply trying to get this amp going at a reasonable cost for my customer ,Im not going to back engineer their product,or set up a slave labour factory in China producing copies for a fraction of the price, To be honest I pity them cause I know for a fact that the owner wont take this lying down either ,and he's likely to be alot less diplomatic than I am when he hears the story .
Thanks again ,

 

[kambo]

Im not going to back engineer their product,or set up a slave labour factory in China producing copies for a fraction of the price, To be honest I pity them cause I know for a fact that the owner wont take this lying down either ,and he's likely to be alot less diplomatic than I am when he hears the story .
Thanks again ,

you said it your self ! but they dont know that!
may be if u write them again, with your history of repairing etc they may soften a bit!

btw, would u ever give away ur patented  design documents, that easy !

i would check with  local lawyer specialized in patent/ industrial etc..
they usually dont charge u anything for a simple question!

 

[Tubetec]

Thanks Kambo,
I guess it will be Monday now before I hear any reply .
I'll try and check out the legality of their position also ,
Im happy to send them in the boards for repair if the cost is reasonable ,I see no point in shipping the whole unit to them ,
its the usual message from big business to the little guy ,why not put it in the bin and buy one of our brand new off the shelf models

 

[pucho812]

As far as I am aware here is no law requiring a manufacturing to give out schematics for repair or otherwise in the U.S.A.. I don't know how it works in the EU.    I know that in the E.U. there is a minimum of 2 years for a manufactures warranty vs minimum 1 year in the U.S.A. Would the product in question still be under warranty? If so, then they must honor it, regardless if it is a U.S. brand. If they selling in Europe the E.U. says 2 years warranty.  Manufactures may hand schematics out at their own discretion.  they may even have you sign an NDA, saying you won't hand out their schematics to others or face legal action. .  From the story it sounds like the manufacture has agreed to sell you a replacement board.  Sounds par for the course. They probably also recommended you send the original board in for service.  Again, par for he course.  While it dos suck for the middle man service tech it sometimes is easiest.

 

[[silent:arts]]

I know that in the E.U. there is a minimum of 2 years for a manufactures warranty

This is not true 
But most people mix this up anyway.
We (in Germany, part of the EU) have a difference between sales guarantee, and manufacture warranty.
To make it even more complicated we do differ between professional buyers, and consumer buyers.
Now, to consumer buyers the seller has to give 2 years guarantee.
The manufactures warranty is a voluntary benefit and not covered by law.

However, no manufacture ever needs to give away schematics etc.
If it is under guarantee (or warranty) it is his decision to repair it, or to exchange the unit, or parts of the unit.
For repairs it is his decision who will repair it. Out of guarantee / warranty he doesn't need to do anything.

 

[pucho812]

This is not true 
But most people mix this up anyway.
We (in Germany, part of the EU) have a difference between sales guarantee, and manufacture warranty.
To make it even more complicated we do differ between professional buyers, and consumer buyers.
Now, to consumer buyers the seller has to give 2 years guarantee.
The manufactures warranty is a voluntary benefit and not covered by law.

However, no manufacture ever needs to give away schematics etc.
If it is under guarantee (or warranty) it is his decision to repair it, or to exchange the unit, or parts of the unit.
For repairs it is his decision who will repair it. Out of guarantee / warranty he doesn't need to do anything.

Learning something new everyday.  I was told  the manufacture has to provide 2 years and that is for all in the E.U.  So let me see if I understand German. Say tascam makes a hard disk recorder and it is sold by thomann. Tascam is not responsible for warranty on a unit , thomann would be responsible?

 

[[silent:arts]]

Learning something new everyday.  I was told  the manufacture has to provide 2 years and that is for all in the E.U.  So let me see if I understand German. Say tascam makes a hard disk recorder and it is sold by thomann. Tascam is not responsible for warranty on a unit , thomann would be responsible?

For the German consumer: the guarantee is covered by Thomann, yes.
We have something called "Verbraucherschutz" (consumer protection).
The consumer made a deal with Thomann, not with Tascam.
How Thomann deals with Tascam is another cup of tea  ;D
And if Tascam gives a 5 years warranty Thomann could say go to Tascam directly after two years.

 

[[silent:arts]]

In practise most manufacture backup the dealers two years guarantee with at least two years of warranty.

Some basics in English:
https://www.hk24.de/en/fairplay/contract-law/german-sales-law/1159468

 

[sahib]

.......
The consumer made a deal with Thomann, not with Tascam.
........

This is correct.

This is also why the retailers  always try to sell you extended warranty here in the UK.

 

[Tubetec]

thanks for the contributions,
Well the contact in the company did say they dont hand out schematics of equipment thats currently in production ,so now that one of these amps is sitting gathering dust in my workshop for five years and is no longer produced might mean he can send me the schem ,and the newer one maybe I have to wait till production of that model ceases, I cant wait to tell the owner ,I can fix your amp,but it  has to sit on a shelf for an unknown amount of time until the schematic becomes available .
Both these units are out of warranty and anyway in both cases it was opperator error that caused the failure in the first place.
We'll see what the guy says Monday when he gets back to me .

I have another issue with a cooker here at home ,still just about under warranty. about a year in the grill ceased to work ,I had a look and it turns out the switch for the grill had melted ,took months and months for the part to become available from their service guy ,finally it arrived and he fitted it ,six months down the line  switch fails again, obviously at this stage and from what the service guy told me the switch isnt properly rated  and made out of plastic instead of bakelite. Ive contacted the makers agents here in this country and there very unwilling to accept theres a problem with the switches ,even though according to the service guy they have replaced  hundreds of the switches under warranty. I dont want to allow them replace the switch with the old type that failed  twice now ,it could be a fire hazzard as theres quite a bit of heat produced at the switch terminal .
Normally proper heat resistant switches are used in cookers and last decades if the not the  lifetime of the unit, Nordmende in this case have cut costs on their switches and theres a major reliabillity problem with this and maybe other models in their range.
Worse comes to worst I'll tell them Im bringing them to the small claims court and Im prepared to be my own expert witness in relation to the switch being unfit for purpose and the fact that they knowingly installed a sub standard part .
At this stage unless they are prepared to replace with an upgraded part that actually works I want my money back .

 

[JohnRoberts]

You don't say in your profile where you live, so you will get answers from around the world, many that may not apply.

There are some "right to repair" laws around but since lawyers cost money i don't expect much benefit from individual litigation. I think there were some auto repair services that demanded design data to facilitate repairing modern vehicles, etc.

There are also legal concerns like implied warranty of fitness and merchantability (kind of that a product works and does what it says it does). If an under-rated switch fails prematurely, and they keep replacing them, I do not see any liability. If the switch catches fire and burns up your kitchen, then you have something. ASSuming the product was tested and approved by a safety agency it should not catch fire, they don't care if it fails as long as it fails "safely".

Many small companies are apprehensive about publishing IP in an environment where low cost copy cats have already put small companies out of business or gutted their profitability.

When I was younger I took great pride at fixing appliances and electronic products without schematics, that back when schematics were hand drawn were often full of errors anyway. These days I rarely ask. I had one appliance, a large room dehumidifier that had a faulty internal temperature sensor. I diagnosed the problem and volunteered to fix it myself if the vendor would either supply me with a replacement (thermocouple?) or tell me a part number. It was apparently cheaper and easier for them to just send me a brand new replacement dehumidifier. (I kept the faulty one for spare parts, they didn't want it back, just made me remove the SN plate.).

Troubleshooting is generally an order of magnitude easier than original design (just look for the smoking parts).

The company should not be concerned about you stealing their IP but you need to convince them about that. Scans and electronic copies are too easy to share. Perhaps they have a customer service department that can answer specific questions about fault symptoms you describe. You do not need a full schematic to make a repair to one small area.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Yeah most of the parts are easily identifiable ,the trouble is some surface mount components that are damaged /burnt beyond recognition . I guess a parts list might suffice on that job if it comes down to it .

As far as the cooker goes ,its a bit slack of the company to send out a replacement part that they know is going to fail ,even if it fails safely . I think theres a good case here to say that this particular unit isnt of merchantable quality, Im not going to be paying the 25 odd euros every six months for a new switch after the warranty runs out either.
Under Irish law the manufacturer has three attempts to put the fault right ,sure it works for a small while after the replacement part is installed . If they dont put it right the third time ,which they wont if they just install the same switch again ,then its either a brand new replacement unit ,pointless if its just going to continue happening, or a full refund to me .
I think corporate greed is the driver of this ,theres obviously more money in selling something that breaks down preferably after the warranty has expired ,in this case the manufacturer miscalculated his under spec component by a long way .If they just speced a proper bakelite/ceramic switch and offered a free replacement they could prevent brand and reputational damage both to themselves and their suppliers .
They'll be hearing for me first thing in the morning,
thank you all again for your contributions .

 

[Tubetec]

It is interesting all the same to hear how consumer rights law varies from place to place ,
So feel free to document any stories of a similar nature no matter where you are.
Cheers,

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yeah most of the parts are easily identifiable ,the trouble is some surface mount components that are damaged /burnt beyond recognition . I guess a parts list might suffice on that job if it comes down to it .

If you send them a smart phone photo of the damaged parts/pcb they may be willing to ID the burnt parts.

As far as the cooker goes ,its a bit slack of the company to send out a replacement part that they know is going to fail ,even if it fails safely . I think theres a good case here to say that this particular unit isnt of merchantable quality, Im not going to be paying the 25 odd euros every six months for a new switch after the warranty runs out either.

maybe source a more robust switch? Probably not trivial to find one that drops right in, or the OEM would have already done that.

Under Irish law the manufacturer has three attempts to put the fault right ,sure it works for a small while after the replacement part is installed . If they dont put it right the third time ,which they wont if they just install the same switch again ,then its either a brand new replacement unit ,pointless if its just going to continue happening, or a full refund to me .
I think corporate greed is the driver of this ,theres obviously more money in selling something that breaks down preferably after the warranty has expired ,in this case the manufacturer miscalculated his under spec component by a long way .If they just speced a proper bakelite/ceramic switch and offered a free replacement they could prevent brand and reputational damage both to themselves and their suppliers .
They'll be hearing for me first thing in the morning,
thank you all again for your contributions .

Good luck. Bad designs happen... I've seen more than a few over the years. I have offered plenty of free advice too, never had one manufacturer admit they made a mistake or thank me.  8)

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Yeah Ive volenteered some friendly advice on a few ocassion ,mostly they wont even dignify it with a reply .
I installed a standby on a buddies Peavey classic 30 ,they tended to eat tubes like no tomorrow ,decent enough sounding amp when it worked ,but no matter what you did it ran very hot ,like you could nearly fry eggs on the top panel .
These days I just refuse to look at them because I cant ever guarantee reliabillity .
I remember finding a response on the Peavey website ,by the man himself, to the question of a standby switch ,not really sure why he decided to try and defend his position on it ,as all decent tube amps with silicon diodes in the psu have a stand-by .
The Marshall 20 watt also never got a standby after the switch  over from thermionic to silicon rectification ,and suffered from buzzy rattley tubes in a very short time ,since I added the standby to mine its lived happily for years on the same set of Sovteks.

I guess admission of a problem means a recall ,and that is bound to be a costly business.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yeah Ive volenteered some friendly advice on a few ocassion ,mostly they wont even dignify it with a reply .
I installed a standby on a buddies Peavey classic 30 ,they tended to eat tubes like no tomorrow ,decent enough sounding amp when it worked ,but no matter what you did it ran very hot ,like you could nearly fry eggs on the top panel .
These days I just refuse to look at them because I cant ever guarantee reliabillity .
I remember finding a response on the Peavey website ,by the man himself, to the question of a standby switch ,not really sure why he decided to try and defend his position on it ,as all decent tube amps with silicon diodes in the psu have a stand-by .
The Marshall 20 watt also never got a standby after the switch  over from thermionic to silicon rectification ,and suffered from buzzy rattley tubes in a very short time ,since I added the standby to mine its lived happily for years on the same set of Sovteks.

I guess admission of a problem means a recall ,and that is bound to be a costly business.

I am not a tube guy but I think I have even seen some discussions about that amp ,or one of the peavey classics around here...with a proposed fix to make the tubes manage current better and behave,,,  I repeat I am not a tube guy, but I did drink beer with several. 

Which man? You probably heard from somebody in customer service, the design engineers rarely get dragged into direct customer discussions, and admitting a mistake does not trigger a recall (while making a serious enough one could). I suspect the telephone guys are taught pretty early about stuff not to say to customers. In fact they are so nice to customers all day long, that when they talk to engineering they can really unload.  :

I once recalled an entire container of finished products that was heading for a boat, when I discovered a faulty component was used in almost all of them, that would have failed randomly and prematurely. A vendor's capacitor lead swaging tool broke, and I was the unlucky (or lucky depending on POV) customer to discover it after many thousands of these barely attached caps were already inside finished products.

Stuff happens... if you don't make mistakes you are not doing anything.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Hi John ,
Yeah it was Heartly Peavey himself that sent out the doc on standby switches .
I must do a search here on the classic ,be interesting to find out why they were so unreliable .
Cheers,

 

[JohnRoberts]

Hi John ,
Yeah it was Heartly Peavey himself that sent out the doc on standby switches .
I must do a search here on the classic ,be interesting to find out why they were so unreliable .
Cheers,

Heartly ? Usually they misspell his last name.  : 

I have drunk many beers with Hartley too... I used to ask his secretary to schedule my meetings with him for the last of the day, so we could break out the adult beverages after knocking off the critical business.  8) He considers himself a design engineer but his skill was surrounding himself with a number of above average real engineers to do the actual design work.  Hartley did help me with some useful advice on a sheet metal production bending problem, but he also opposed me on my extrusion design proposal. He was also smart enough to let me try it and it is still in use there decades later.  8)

He knows his way around the bench and shop, and has great empathy for his customers and what they want "Cheap gear that doesn't suck". My regret was not leaving because of arguments with the man whose name was on all the buildings, but but that I missed the early years. That was probably a fun ride, I had more than a little fun in my 15 years there, but we could always use more fun. 

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Ahh well 15 good years isnt so bad ,
Not many jobs here relating to electronics nowadays, the vast majority of its gone to the far east ,except for a few highend industrial/ military specialist places,could have got work in one of them too ,but didnt really fancy the politics of making tank and attack helicopter parts .

Did a bit of a search on the classic 30 alright ,similar stories to my experiences with them ,win some loose some I guess.
Cheers.