Shunt breaker vs GFI

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Skiroy

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Messages
233
Location
Panama City Florida
I have a room full of recording equipment that I fear may become damaged by my power turning off and back on for various reasons. I was told one part of the solution would be to put a 20A shunt circuit breaker on my room's main supply. This would be so if the power turns off the breaker would trip and only be turned back on manually.

But is a hunt breaker the correctr type because Im reading that it trips from a voltage spike vs a voltage drop out. Do I need a crowbar breaker? And how does a shunt breaker differ from a GFI?

This is the shunt breaker Im looking at.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SQUARE-D-QOB1201021-SHUNT-TRIP-CIRCUIT-BREAKER-20-AMP-/170762652679?pt=BI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item27c23f4c07
 
PLEASE hire an electrician to advise you on electrical troubles.

That breaker is probably not what you want. It also may not fit your breaker box. In any case, you should not work inside a breaker box. It's possibly fatal. More likely is a Flash Burn which sprays boiling copper in your face.

Leave it to professionals who have been trained.
 
I will but  I need to know what I need because I have had Electricians BS me before. I rather have the part in hand and pay the Electrcian to install it. I wouldnt be shocked(No Pun Intended) if they just installed a GFI and gave me the bill. Plus it will save me from pay $200.00 for a part I can get for $50.00 or so. I have no problem paying for thr labor and know how but refuse to over pay 100-200% hiked up prices for parts.
 
Skiroy said:
I have had Electricians BS me before.
Good electricians dont ********..........so get a recommended one.
Here in the UK a certified electrician can be imprisoned for bad practice !
 
GFCI in simple terms monitors for equality between L1 and L2, if there is more than a predetermined difference it trips.

A shunt breaker is a combination type device rather fitted too or combined in a regular breaker that besides its regular functioning trip it has remote control to also trip the breaker.

To get a shunt for your breaker, locate who makes your panel and get the style of breaker you have. Model numbers are good. Next verify that there is room to add a additional breaker. I would recommend you give this information to the electrician and have him buy the correct parts. I would also recommend that you send them pictures of your panel and the breaker types. If you get the wrong stuff you may pay for your electricians trip twice. Your shunt would be installed to the mains and just drop out when the power drops out.

You could skip this all together and install a nice UPS system. It will probably cost the same after all the labor costs & time spent and provide you a lot more protection than just installing a shunt breaker. We use Eaton rack mounted UPS and they work quite well.

 
Not being familiar with "shunt breakers" I looked them up:

It works just like a normal circuit breaker with one additional function. A shunt-trip breaker also has a built-in magnetic coil that can be energized externally to trip the breaker.
For instance, fire sprinklers are sometimes required in the top of elevator shafts in case of a fire in the shaft. If the sprinklers were to spray water on the electric controls in the elevator cab, people could be hurt or killed, either from electrocution or from the elevator malfunctioning. In these cases, a shunt-trip breaker is installed in the circuit feeding the elevator controls, and the fire alarm system sends a trip signal if it detects waterflow from the sprinkler system. This trips the breaker and removes power from the elevator cab.
Once tripped, shunt-trip breakers require a person to manually reset them.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_a_shunt_trip_breaker_work#ixzz1nEGSLrg8

I guess the important function in your case is:
Once tripped, shunt-trip breakers require a person to manually reset them.
 
RCD "Residual Current Device" here in the UK,
A Toroidal transformer  Monitors the Difference in L N  current flow .
Zero difference In/out equals ...no earth path leakage, equals no fault or leakage.
Difference produces a voltage which trips an amplifier tripping the breaker....protecting leakage, ie human or othe semiconducting material  !!  in 50ms or better .
30 - 100 - 300mA  or industrial adjustable versions available.
Over current...Prospective Short Circuit , by the way of a  L to N short is protected By the normal Circuit BREAKER O/C operation of the device.
Overcurrent and Leakage are two different Animals.

How and why does you power go on and of again ?

How could any one know what your requirements are without physically seeing the installation.....?


Or just get a 10A Power Breaker Extension lead with EARTH LEAKAGE protection (30mA) run all your gear of it and see what happens !



 
I'm pretty sure the shunt trip cb would be a simple setup with just a mains voltage trip - so when the mains voltage goes below ~70% then the cb trips open, and you need to manually reset it.  In this case it would have nothing to do with over-voltages.  It could have the benefit that if you ever had the misfortune to have a severe brown-out then your equipment would not be kept powered with say 60% of mains voltage, or if a brief drop in mains caused some equipment to adversely reset then the cb shunt trip would force all equipment off.  Likewise, if you need to sequence the turning on of equipment then you now have that opportunity.
 
ok, lets dumb this down so i can understand it,  :p

power surge from your supplier is a worry,

so once the power goes off from a lightening strike, terrorist attack or squirell in the transformer, we don't care, we just want to protect the old Neve desk from failure,

what do we do?

a ups system will keep power going to the equipment by way of a backup battery and inverter, along with some fancy circuitry,

this would seem to be the best solution, as you might be recording a pepsi commercial with barry manilow or something,

GFI is more for human protection or equipment malfunction,

they come in many flavors, the home repo version might install in your bathroom and protect you while you are shaving, same fairchild chip in everyone keeps it cheap, but you do not wnat that,

other GFI models might be a small plastic or metal box that has a small toroid coil on a hi perm core, either powdered iron or 80 permalloy, which has either a single groundl wire or 2 hot and cold wires for 120 VAC or 3  wires for a three phase system, if a wye system, maybe just the neutral, when leakage current flows thru the toroid, say a 500 turn toroid, and the leakage is 5 ma, you will have 5ma/500T = 0.01 ma or 10 microamps, put a 1000 ohm burden resistor across the toroid and you will generate 0.000010 x 1000 = 0.01 volts AC or 10 millivolts.
this is why you need good shielding and a balanced circuit, to avoid noise hits from tripping the hi amp circuit needed to turn 10 mv into 1or 2 volts to switch a transistor base or  pull in a relay.
usually a couple of opamps are used, one to jack up the ac signal and another as a comparator to switch on or off depending on the input signal vs a precision ref.
ferrite beads on the supply wires to the GF are a must for good operation, must be high bandwidth, maybe 7 turns of #36 on a 1/2 inch cylinder,



lets say you stick your hand in the toaster while standing in the bathtub,  :-\

a current might flow from ground/neutral through your body to the hot side of the 120.

this would create a current in the neutral wire that is not normally there,

you can set the GFI to any trip current you like depending on the model,

they range from 1 ma for human/medical protection, all the way up to maybe 1 amp,

some have a range switch that allows say, 5, 10, 30 ma trip points,

others may have as pot for adjusting the trip point,

GFI's need to be shielded in  order to prevent nuisance tripping from external sources,

you can get the output of the GFI in a form C relay of a solid state switch,

or a latching relay which will act like the shunt circuit breaker, otherwise the GFI will simple reset itself when the leakage current stops, so you need to add your own latching ralay or program the PLC to shut off power to the offending circuit.
otherwise you have a situation where the GFI gets tripped, power gets shut off, the leakage current therfore goes away, the GFI  reverts to normal state which turns power back on, which trips GFI again, so you havean ugly motorboating going on that will be worse than any power surge you can imagine, thus, the latching rrlay.

so GFI  would not be for power surge, UPS would be good or possibly a Furman power conditioner,m i do believe those would have some sort of power surge protection?




 
Until we hear from the OP about the principal concern then we don't really know what their issue is, apart from the cryptic shunt trip vs GFI query.
 
> Not being familiar with "shunt breakers"

> A shunt-trip breaker also has a built-in magnetic coil that can be energized externally to trip the breaker.
> the fire alarm system sends a trip signal


Yeah, and I saw other "explanations" which conflicted.

Taking this one, where is this "signal"? Power has gone-off, nothing to send a "signal".

The part needs a significant jolt to turn-off the breaker.

We want a part which needs a small steady trickle to hold it on.

Square D calls that an "Undervoltage trip". However they have dozens of models going up to 37,000 volt rating.

There's a simple way with a relay. However relays directly in a 20A circuit need particular care in case of short-circuit. And if the worry is voltage spikes while power is being restored, standard relays may _not_ protect you (their gaps are not large enough to block distribution voltage crosses).

> Until we hear from the OP about the principal concern then we don't really know

He was asked on his previous threads. He seems shy to discuss it.
 
I didnt want to have to get into this again but I probably should have kept it to the original thread but Ihave learn the longer the thread goes the more off topic the posts become. So here is my whole scenerio. 


http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=46693.msg587019#msg587019

If you skip tp reply #7, this is what I am going to do.

But Sodder boy says,
"Trip-shunt breakers on the whole shebang.  There are a few different versions of these; ask an electrician.  I like the self-contained type that trips when it loses power.  I put them in a sub-panel for a studio.  Small studios with only one circuit can DIY with 120 VAC coil AC contactors."

I am trying to simply find the correct Trip Shunt breaker he is refering to.

 
And to the poster that asked why am I concerned with my power cutting off. Well I dont want to put an expensive,high maintenance and in my case unneccssary UPS sytem for all my equipment. Im not a proffessional studio so losing a take because of a glitch is not an issue. Losing sessions or hard drives are so I am going with UPS for my DAW. My power cuts on and off during storms. I live in Florida so they come out of nowhere. And as I make it a habit to turn my equipment off when I leave I sometimes forget to. And the power cutting out and then back on when your equipment is powered on is equal to turning your equipment on and off by unplugging it vs the power switch. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!.

I say this because I was told in the past its not an issue but there is a difference between turning your stuff on under a load. The equipment is designed to be turned on by the power switch not the plug. And power outages are not my concern,the power coming back on and in some cases on and off 2-3 times which is bad. This is where I need the Trip-Shunt.

The voltagesags and peaks,which I cant prove, will be covered by the true power conditioners I plan on getting. And the UPS for the DAWs cover,well the DAW side of things.
 
Skiroy said:
And the power cutting out and then back on when your equipment is powered on is equal to turning your equipment on and off by unplugging it vs the power switch. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!.

I say this because I was told in the past its not an issue but there is a difference between turning your stuff on under a load. The equipment is designed to be turned on by the power switch not the plug. And power outages are not my concern,the power coming back on and in some cases on and off 2-3 times which is bad.

I suggest your paranoia is getting the better of you.  You haven't identified a 'DIFFERENCE', and I suggest you would not identify a difference for any normal commercial equipment.  I also suggest that your 'plug' versus 'power switch' comment is also poor heresay, as is the 2-3 times comment (with respect to somehow hurting the equipment).

Ciao, Tim

 
I think that what Skiroy's situation is:
A thunder storm rolls in off the ocean,  at the first momentary power outage, he wants a device to turn-off the power to his audio equipment and keep it off until he decides that the storm has passed,  then he can manually turn the equipment power back on.
That's a side function of a shunt breaker but I'm not sure that shunt breakers are available for smaller circuit breaker boxes.  This is something that is used in industrial and commercial kitchen sites.
 
Thats a simple contactor/heavy duty relay with a hold on contact ,with a reset power switch.
Sounds like the OP do'nt  really know what he wants and is over thinking this.
 
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