Similar Mindset?
- Thread starter analag
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pucho812
Well-known member
analag said:
Ask uli...
ruffrecords
Well-known member
Only one of them knows which end of a soldering iron is hot.
Cheers
Ian
Cheers
Ian
..and then there's Anamod, that'll do analog emulations of digital emulations of analog.
Wonder if there's a plugin version of them?
;D
Wonder if there's a plugin version of them?
;D
analag said:
Cloners don't have to understand the circuit they're cloning
Emulators have to understand pretty well the circuit they're emulating
Functionally to mimic a specific path sound is pretty much the same using different technology.analag said:
Selling a clone (copy) of vintage gear is at least superficially misrepresenting the product.
If some vintage (old) gear performs some function better than other modern gear, why not do it even better using modern technology. If the feature being copied, is nonlinearity (aka distortion), you can probably do that better (easier and cheaper) too... not sure why.
JR
JohnRoberts said:
Because it would not be "better" , it will be "different"
"Better" is a subjective term
Sometime I don't what what the other person perceives as "improvement" I just want exactly what that piece of gear brings...
seems mostly objective to me, "same while cheaper" is exactly what clone merchants proffer.Whoops said:
OK, for TMI I was working at Peavey when they developed the very successful solid state tube distortion mimic (transtube). Of course this is not exactly the same as tubes, but good enough to fool most listeners in a single blind A/B listening test inside the Peavey sound booth at one NAMM show (last century).
Transtube was not my project. Jack Sondermeyer (RIP) and Jame Brown were the inventors on those patents and the lead design engineers. Since I shared lab space with Jack's analog group I would chew the fat with Jack's guys. Transtube identified a handful of sonic characteristics related to tube overload, and replicated that with low voltage inexpensive solid state circuitry. This offered new features like forcing tube saturation sound at reduced sound levels inexpensively (previously accomplished by running a tube amp from lower mains voltage using a variac.)
I tried to get a junior engineer in Jack's Analog design group interested in pursuing a higher performance version of transtube, imagine a lower noise tube path? My suggestion did not take, with him. My vision was not "like a tube but cheaper", I wanted to make it "like a tube but even better". 8) Of course Peavey customers mainly like the cheaper part.
JR
JohnRoberts said:
As far as Guitar amps go, I never heard any that was "like a tube but even better".
Also I don't want any guitar amps better to be "better" or "different" than a tube amp, Tube amps of the various brands and circuits make the job pretty well. So I don't think Tube Guitar amps need to be better soundwise, we are already pretty well covered.
If you want to make an amp sound "like a tube but even better", you will make something that doesn't sound like Tubes, and it will not be "better" soundwise, it will be "different".
boji
Well-known member
Art vs science. Curation vs revelation.
The child-scientist within the engineer ought to want to make 'all things better'.
Why do humans seek perfection?
Emulation = perfection, cloning = Benjamins.
john12ax7
Well-known member
Whoops said:
Some do, others don't. There are certainly plugin developers that are rather clueless when it comes to circuits.
A step up from the cloner is the tweaker. I would not build it if the option to tweak it did not exist. There is something very satisfying in having a few one offs in the studio. The great studios of the past did it and a few still do.
pucho812
Well-known member
analag said:
the problem with the tweeters is that most in this day and age tweak because they read it on the internet. They use things like sounds better without actual measuring if there are any improvements. there is a whole industry set up to sell tweaks, some are worth it, some are not, some are measured some are not. I have seen a few groups via Facebook where they tweak because they can, meanwhile they do not understand that just because opamps share the same pinout does not make them completely compatible. but hey tweak away.
user 37518
Well-known member
pucho812 said:
Amen
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
The two fellas, David and Jonathon, that I worked with at Universal Audio on the UAD plug-ins were the smartest guys I've ever worked with. David has, I believe, a double PhD from MIT and had worked on projects for NASA. I saw Jonathon solve quite complex mathematical problems in his head and he no doubt had a similar educational background.
My input as analogue engineer was basically limited to helping devise and run the tests on vintage Fairchild, Pultec, old and new LA-2a units etc. with them and, when there was something they were unsure of, going over some detail of the circuit.
Although not an analogue engineer, David was capable of understanding even the most complex analogue circuitry once I'd given a rudimentary overview.
I learned a lot working with them. But mostly I learned that, in the grand scheme, I didn't know very much!
My input as analogue engineer was basically limited to helping devise and run the tests on vintage Fairchild, Pultec, old and new LA-2a units etc. with them and, when there was something they were unsure of, going over some detail of the circuit.
Although not an analogue engineer, David was capable of understanding even the most complex analogue circuitry once I'd given a rudimentary overview.
I learned a lot working with them. But mostly I learned that, in the grand scheme, I didn't know very much!
Which is why I love to use a little Pspice in my cooking! I however am guilty of cloning an 1176, I needed to do it at least once. And I love the unit. On the software side I find myself running emulations of all the vintage units I'm aware of and a lot more that I've never even heard of. I support the small developers with really innovative ideas too.
I don't know if this is on topic or not, but last century while considering all the possible variables that could be controlled for a full function dynamics processor, I hypothesized a potential product where all the settings were accessible and savable. This was so long ago I was going to save the setting to tape using FSK. Included in the product was a number of presets that effectively mimicked popular existing products (virtual clones, but much more).
A customer could use a preset of a favorite classic dynamic processor as a starting point and then tweak away from there. The customer could dig as deep or shallow as desired.
Back last century the technology was not ready for prime time mostly coming up with a practical control interface... Now with flash programmable DSP chips and graphic displays with touch control panels the interface is more possible, but probably even better to just make this a smart phone app.
I suspect giving the typical dynamics customer a couple tens of parameters to adjust would just blind them with science, but they would probably appreciate the ability to call up classic preset sounds.
Yet another one of my ideas that never saw the light of day. As the criticism goes, if you don't realize a design idea it is just mental masturbation. :
JR
A customer could use a preset of a favorite classic dynamic processor as a starting point and then tweak away from there. The customer could dig as deep or shallow as desired.
Back last century the technology was not ready for prime time mostly coming up with a practical control interface... Now with flash programmable DSP chips and graphic displays with touch control panels the interface is more possible, but probably even better to just make this a smart phone app.
I suspect giving the typical dynamics customer a couple tens of parameters to adjust would just blind them with science, but they would probably appreciate the ability to call up classic preset sounds.
Yet another one of my ideas that never saw the light of day. As the criticism goes, if you don't realize a design idea it is just mental masturbation. :
JR
Winston O'Boogie said:
Nice to share that mate.
UAD plugins are just Brilliant. I was impressed when I first tried them, the plugins sound absolutely fantastic.
I love to build gear, GroupDiy clones of amazing vintage gear, but I completely stopped to build gear when I started to use UAD plugins.
For tracking I still use hardware EQs and Compressors, but for mixing I completely lost the need for any hardware unit.
UAD, David and Jonathon are doing a tremendous job, I'm happy you had the privilege of working with them. I would love to have had the chance of working with them also.
JohnRoberts said:I don't know if this is on topic or not, but last century while considering all the possible variables that could be controlled for a full function dynamics processor, I hypothesized a potential product where all the settings were accessible and savable. This was so long ago I was going to save the setting to tape using FSK. Included in the product was a number of presets that effectively mimicked popular existing products (virtual clones, but much more).
A customer could use a preset of a favorite classic dynamic processor as a starting point and then tweak away from there. The customer could dig as deep or shallow as desired.
Back last century the technology was not ready for prime time mostly coming up with a practical control interface... Now with flash programmable DSP chips and graphic displays with touch control panels the interface is more possible, but probably even better to just make this a smart phone app.
I suspect giving the typical dynamics customer a couple tens of parameters to adjust would just blind them with science, but they would probably appreciate the ability to call up classic preset sounds.
Yet another one of my ideas that never saw the light of day. As the criticism goes, if you don't realize a design idea it is just mental masturbation. :
JR
All done in software. Even EQs makes more sense or are infinitely more functional in software form. I'm out there urging devs to make certain EQs dynamic because static is just so static!
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