So yeah, the PC people have won once again..

[gyraf]

..but can you actually insist the opposite?

 

[matriachamplification]

..but can you actually insist the opposite?

"DOMINOS!"

 

[gyraf]

;D

 

[Scodiddly]

I've heard from several comedians that they no longer go to universities because they always get booed off stage, if you can't make fun of anything or anyone, how can you make a joke? isn't that the whole foundation of comedy? blacks making fun of whites, men making fun of women or women of men?

If you hadn't noticed, a lot of comedians solved the problem by making fun of themselves rather than others.

 

[Tubetec]

People seem to have ascribed themselves the right to never have their beliefs chalenged, if someone says something they profoundly disagree with or something that forces them to confront their thinking on a certain subject the discussion is simply shut down with cries of Non PC . It functions like a sheild against discomfort and actually having to think for yourself . Theres quite a lot of content on Youtube gets removed for this very reason also , in particular traditional German songs and tunes , it litterally takes one person say they feel a particular piece of music has Nazi connotations or connections  and its gone forever .
Its like saying you have freedom of speech as long as you dont say anything the 'collective' dissagrees with , say something we dont agree with its automatically branded hate speech . We really shouldnt be surprised the Lemming effect is magnified on the internet should we , approval is measured by the number of likes so difficult or awkward topics are avoided entirely.

 

[Gold]

..but can you actually insist the opposite?

Good question. I suppose it depends on context. I can’t imagine any context where a business owner would want customers greeted that way.

 

[user 37518]

If you hadn't noticed, a lot of comedians solved the problem by making fun of themselves rather than others.

Yeah, so now its all about that, making fun of yourself, what about if you are asian and make fun of yourself for being asian? is that ok? what if some asian gets offended? actually, and this is what I've noticed, when a comedian makes a joke about another race, the people really offended are not the people from the race you made fun of, but its the rest of the people who are not of that race, thus the name SJW.

I just saw a video of some mexican dad at a university, the guy was saying something and some guy in the audience said "So why didn't you stay in Mexico?", people got outraged, white ladies starded pointing fingers, a black dude stood up and confronted the guy and said "you have to leave", he got booed by everyone except the mexican guy, the mexican didn't get outraged in fact he just laughed and didn't take it seriously, the mexican started asking people to calm down, in fact he responded the guy.

My point, it no longer matters if you are offending someone, its just enough for someone to think that you have offended someone else.

 

[Tubetec]

Of course yeah , theres loads of people out there willing and able to take offence on someone elses behalf for the purposes of rattling the tin can ,virtue signaling and getting a few extra likes .

 

[boji]

Good conversation on Lex Friedman podcast.
Topics include free speech issues and narrative control, power and tech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifX_JnBfxTY

 

[Scodiddly]

Yeah, so now its all about that, making fun of yourself, what about if you are asian and make fun of yourself for being asian? is that ok?

Yes, actually it is OK for an Asian person to make fun of themselves.

What a lot of white people miss is that a big factor is relative power (or privilege).  If the comedian is an American white guy making fun of black people, there's the whole ugly history of American slavery, oppression, etc. behind it.  Whether or not the comedian means to invoke the spectre of lynching, it's something that's more likely to be in the background of how a black person perceives it.

It's not the case that people are suddenly being offended by things, they have always been offended.  Just maybe now they're actually feeling like they can speak up about it without fear of brutal retaliation.  Imagine you're in a company meeting and the boss, who makes enough to have a Mercedes, starts making fun of your shitty old Honda.  Are you offended?  Almost certainly. Can you say anything back your boss?  Probably not.

 

[user 37518]

Yes, actually it is OK for an Asian person to make fun of themselves.

What a lot of white people miss is that a big factor is relative power (or privilege).  If the comedian is an American white guy making fun of black people, there's the whole ugly history of American slavery, oppression, etc. behind it.  Whether or not the comedian means to invoke the spectre of lynching, it's something that's more likely to be in the background of how a black person perceives it.

It's not the case that people are suddenly being offended by things, they have always been offended.  Just maybe now they're actually feeling like they can speak up about it without fear of brutal retaliation.  Imagine you're in a company meeting and the boss, who makes enough to have a Mercedes, starts making fun of your sh*tty old Honda.  Are you offended?  Almost certainly. Can you say anything back your boss?  Probably not.

I'm not sure you are speaking for the entire Asian community, and not all Asians will think the same way you do.

One of my favorite comedians is Louis CK, there is this famous routine in SNL were he makes fun of child molestors, I recommend you to watch it, the balls this guy has to say what he said on National TV are unbelievable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzh7RtIJKZk, it is the most Un pollitically correct thing I have ever heard, but it is brilliant. Yes, I know, he used to masturbate in front of women and got punished for that by basically making him a pariah. But my point is, that is comedy! being able to make fun of whatever you like, that is also why I love Family Guy, those guys will make fun of everything and everyone, no one is safe, and its hilarious, people need to understand the difference between comedy, free speech, and just plain old hate.

I've said it before, I am Mexican, when I hear a comedian making fun of Mexicans I do not get offended, I laugh, because most of what they are saying is actually true!, when Donald Trump says all mexicans are rapists, that is another thing, he is not being funny, he is lying and he is promoting hate, two very different things, and to put both things in the same category is a mistake, and I belive that is what people are doing right now, the job of a comedian is to make you laugh not to promote hate, they use stereotypes because most of them are based on true facts!

I'll tell you my opinion, and again, this is just my opinion, white people (and I am white btw, but I am Mexican so I don't carry all the baggage you do) are so scared of offending anyone, they feel uncomfortable for everything, even so that when someone else does something they consider inappropriate, I just think they are projecting their own insecurities onto them. For example, cultural appropriation, just because you use a Mexican sombrero you are now accused of "cultural appropriation", what? do you think us Mexicans care if you use a Mexican sombrero? no, its the white SJW who care. I recently read a story on the news that Kim Kardashian is being accused of cultural appropriation because she released her own brand of tequila, she basically came to Mexico, tried several types of tequila and decided to launch her own brand of tequila, apparently its quite expensive, but she is now being accused of cultural appropriation. Man this thing has to stop!, don't know if you know this but the birth control pill was invented by a Mexican scientist here in the 50s, but got commercialized till the 60s by a US scientist, is that cultural appropriation aswell?

Jordan Peterson who is a clinical psychologist and teaches at the Toronto University has said that in the future, universities will be just about STEM fields because the humanities are being so corrupted by the SJW that you can no longer say anything

Again, when did feelings became more important than facts, here in Mexico we call this generation the "Crystal Generation" because they are so sensitive that anything offends them even when you are not offending them.

I am going to tell you a story, this is absolutely true, I can point to you to the videos and the documentation, a woman professor who was teaching a law subject via remote conference right now during the pandemic to some accountant students in a university here in Mexico, said something like "you need to include Bibliographic references in your homework", the students didn't do it and argued that the term "bibliography" was something they didn't understand because they didn't study law which was the thing the teacher was teaching, arguing that "bibliography" was a law term, the teacher had to explain them that "Bibliography" is not a term used in law, its some commmon sense and something you learn in primary school, you can watch the 10 minute video of the students arguing with the teacher, the patience of this teacher is stellar. Well to be short, the students reported the teacher and she got fired, Obviously the video caused outrage in Mexico, how was it possible that these ignorant students didn't know what Bibliography meant, and overall that the teacher was fired, I don't know the end of the story, but it tells you the state of things right now.

 

[Scodiddly]

I'm not sure you are speaking for the entire Asian community, and not all Asians will think the same way you do.

From my perspective, I'm not sure you are speaking for the entire Mexican community, and not all Mexicans will think the same way you do.

I'm actually a descendant of European immigrants to America. Though lately I've been seeing things more from the perspective of people of color, because that seems like a useful thing to do as a way of understanding a lot of the BS that's accumulated in this country.

 

[user 37518]

From my perspective, I'm not sure you are speaking for the entire Mexican community, and not all Mexicans will think the same way you do.

I'm actually a descendant of European immigrants to America. Though lately I've been seeing things more from the perspective of people of color, because that seems like a useful thing to do as a way of understanding a lot of the BS that's accumulated in this country.

Everyone has a reason to hate someone else, throughout history everyone has commited attrocious things against others, the romans for example took half of the world, the persians in spain, the egyptians with the jews, the british and the americans, or the british and the indians, the spaniards with the mexican natives, hell, the americans with the mexicans, you guys took half our land and didn't even bother to change the name of the cities! ahahaha you even have a state called New Mexico which serves as a reminder of that... If everyone looked at history like that, there are plenty of reasons to be pissed, there has been millenia of conflict  between races, religions, communities, etc... I don't think its healthy nor wise to hold on to that fact and specially use it as an argument to self censure oneself to not say anything because at someo point in the past someone made some wrong decisions and someone might feel offended. My family line is entirely from Spain from both sides of my parents, my grand parents arrived to Mexico in a boat, do you seriously believe people here in Mexico are pissed at me because my roots are from Spain even when the native Mexicans were conquered for 300 years by the spaniards?

I think that what you are talking about is something that happened more recently, like slavery in the US, or the Hollocaust, so when is it ok to talk about it? can we talk about Gengis Kan and make fun of what he did because it was in the 12th century or is it still too soon? I know it may sound ridiculous, but I am trying to prove a point, how far back in history is it considered ok to make fun of? Shall we never make fun of neanderthals because the homo sapiens were probably the ones who wiped them out? You said your family is from european descent, exactly from where? I could bet that some ancester of yours was oppresed by some other country at some time, why don't you get offended by that?

You see, you are mixing pollitics, religion, and history with comedy, that is the mistake, comedy is comedy, its not pollitics, not religion, not history, its something entirely different. I am not saying "forget about history" I am saying "when listening at comedy, chill the f**k down, right now is the time to laught not the time for history"

There is an episode in family guy in which they go to Italy, and they arrive at the Italian airport and there is a banner that says "Welcome to Italy, remember we were on the Nazi's side", I found it hillarious, I ask any italian members here, do you really feel offended? There is a joke between Argentinians and Mexicans, soccer is extremely important for Mexicans and Argentinians, the joke goes like this: an Argentinian tells a Mexican "Hey, you have never won a soccer world cup, right?" and the "Mexican goes, yeah, but you guys have never won a war right?" (refering to the Falkland Islands) and every time I tell that joke to an Argentinian we both laugh.

People need to be able to take a joke about themselves, I'll just end with this anonymous quote "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHO CAN LAUGH AT HIMSELF, FOR HE WILL NEVER CEASE TO BE AMUSED" and here are many, many more https://www.azquotes.com/quotes/topics/laugh-at-yourself.html

 

[boji]

It's not the case that people are suddenly being offended by things, they have always been offended. 

True, were it not for the creation of social media. Its propagative / suppressive effects act as a force multiplier, especially when offense and grievance are used to build tribal solidarity. People are very much becoming attuned to the offense mindset; we only need look at the record profits of businesses that have learned to capitalize upon it.

Just maybe now they're actually feeling like they can speak up

For those that crowdsource justice, cancellation wields enormous asymmetric power.  There is no moral high ground within the belief that it is ok to judge someone forever by the isolated mistakes they make along the path to maturity and wisdom.

 

[user 37518]

There is no moral high ground within the belief that it is ok to judge someone forever by the isolated mistakes they make along the path to maturity and wisdom.

You just said in a couple of lines what I tried to say in a 5 paragraph post.

 

[boji]

You just said in a couple of lines

:-[ *embarrassed* Thanks, but you had plenty else to say worth reading.

 

[remsouille]

For those that crowdsource justice, cancellation wields enormous asymmetric power.  There is no moral high ground within the belief that it is ok to judge someone forever by the isolated mistakes they make along the path to maturity and wisdom.

Very well put, brother.

 

[L´Andratté]

I am not decided if it is the case, but it has been argued, that
fighting racism, misogyny, etc. in language ("Shakespeare was an antisemite!")
is actually a force of inertia, an act of avoiding to fight this shit in real life here and now.

Thanks BOJI for your ceaseless fight for decency in the world!  ;D
It is sorely needed!

 

[letterbeacon]

Isn't it the role of the older generations to tut and shake their heads at the younger generations? This just seems to be what's happening here -older generations not understanding the younger ones who are more interested in being PC. Wasn't it ever thus?

 

[Scodiddly]

The question of "how far back are you allowed to go" seems like a bit of a red herring to me. It's now about when something bad was happening, it's about whether people are currently being affected.  Slavery didn't end all that long ago, in practical terms. Jim Crow and the KKK oppression kept black people down, and there are still effects of that being felt today. So that's still a very sensitive topic, at least if you are willing to put yourself in the shoes of somebody affected.  Unfortunately a rather nasty form of bully humor has taken over for a lot of white Americans in the past 2-3 decades. 

And that whole "cancel culture" thing - it's like people expect that they deserve some kind of public celebrity status, and then when they turn out to be an asshole they're shocked that they can lose that status.