Soliloqueen's k87(k67) and k47 capsules

[soliloqueen]

wow the cardioid flat k47s might ship before christmas

 

[soliloqueen]

we have a lot of flat k47 plates (we sent back a previous bad batch and complained, probably part of why they don't want to try anymore) and they're all perfect, so we'll continue using these for a minute

(sorry for the sloppy comp)
we just ran out of k47v plates, which makes the future of the k47v a bit more up in the air. i COULD buy more k47v plates from them, but
1. it would need to be 1000 more plates
2. this experience
3. the k47v is pretty cheap to machine at my friend's shop, actually, since there's only 1 plate and the through holes are so much bigger and less precise in placement than the k67. it isn't expensive enough to justify outsourcing the plates.
so i think we'll just start making them ourselves next batch.

 

[mmelot]

I received my k87 this week, and I finally finished my U87 clone, works like a charm. Mostly thanks to your capsule! Thank you Ari!

 

[OneRoomStudio]

the cardioid only flat k47s were never going to ship before christmas in the first place. i made this explicit in several places. there is no expected delay from their early january ship date if that's what you mean. the k47vs, i don't think so either.

I knew they weren’t going to ship until after Christmas- I was just referring to the “I don't expect an impact on retail orders” part, so good to hear no expected delays on those either!

Thanks for all the great communication and dedication to putting out the best product possible at a great price!

 

[ElSmurf]

Finally had my friend over, so I finally got a chance to compare the Warm Audio K87 with V1 and V2 of the Arienne K87. Very interesting results. Both Arienne capsules blew the WA away in terms of detail, depth and evenness in response. But I was surprised by the very smooth and extended high end in the V2 compared to the V1. Will post some samples soon.

 

[soapfoot]

@soliloqueen it totally sucks, but I have to say it's really awesome how open you have been about the various challenges throughout this whole effort. Whatever capsules I end up with in my mics will come from you because of this (not just because of the value equation).

totally—I think it’s worth taking a second to acknowledge that it would be *very* easy and ordinary to:

a) “set and forget” instead of continually checking up on the performance of a partner’s work

b) stay quiet about a subtle problem like this backplate precision issue and just stock the inventory (with the understanding that the vast majority of the customer base would be vanishingly unlikely to ever notice)

all signs point to this being more a labor of love than a labor of commerce, and I think most people who make diy audio gear can probably relate to that

I’ve been messing around with the insides of microphones since 2007 or so, and things are so much better now it’s crazy. Grateful for that

 

[soliloqueen]

totally—I think it’s worth taking a second to acknowledge that it would be *very* easy and ordinary to:

a) “set and forget” instead of continually checking up on the performance of a partner’s work

b) stay quiet about a subtle problem like this backplate precision issue and just stock the inventory (with the understanding that the vast majority of the customer base would be vanishingly unlikely to ever notice)

all signs point to this being more a labor of love than a labor of commerce, and I think most people who make diy audio gear can probably relate to that

I’ve been messing around with the insides of microphones since 2007 or so, and things are so much better now it’s crazy. Grateful for that

I'm really obsessive about these kinds of things. Especially with the in-house metal, It's gone through the wringer. Even freeze and impact testing! If it can't maintain its shape under load while being frozen for 4 days at -20c it's back to the drawing board. It's cold here! No point in building something if it's going to fall apart when we ship it anywhere that isn't south of us. Though I probably look kind of crazy with a bunch of random metal plates stacked on top of my frozen peas...

Complacency means death If we're starting to manufacture backplates from scratch. The factory may not do very consistent work, but they are experienced. They know exactly what they're doing, they're just cutting costs. The center plugs don't loosen in deep freeze at all. So we've been iterating on how the backplates are put together for about 2 months now finding the ideal methods of insertion of the center plug, materials for the center plug, consistent ways to dry the plates, timing and temperature for heat drying the brass, cross correlating that with what the plugs can handle. On and on. Lots of well machined plates covered in patina from moisture that hid away in the holes and plugs that fall out or shift during freezing or oven drying, or shatter during chemical drying because of incompatibility with the liquid desiccant.

We started out with acrylic, but it turns out that has too high of a coefficient of thermal expansion to survive Winter shipping, so we moved to plastics with lower coefficients, but then they can't be press fit under enough tension for my personal satisfaction. We also can't glue them because we're using precision grinding and that's less compatible with glued parts than lapping. so on my insane machinist's suggestion we ended up combining press fitting and micro threading the center plug like it's a CK12 backplate in reverse

We get all the way through roughing and a bit further and then my machinist says that he doesn't like that the center tap doesn't look flush with the metal on all edges because the profile of the threads on both parts don't match every time. I told him that that doesn't matter at all and that it's going to be covered by the diaphragm anyway and also fixing it would require him to write CNC code that could custom thread them as complimentary parts where the profile of the thread starts and stops at exactly the same point on both parts and I didn't think It could be done. Apparently this was fighting words and at that point it became a dare and he comes back two days later with this


So he ******* did it and now I owe him lunch.

i asked him if it was going to be slower to make tiny custom threads in each plug instead of just press fitting them and he said "maybe 10 years ago" so apparently this kind of precision isn't difficult anymore if you know what you're doing on modern medium-high end tool shop equipment. or maybe he's just insane. i can't tell.

 

[capacitorless]

Now those are the kind of people I like to work with (and be, for that matter).

 

[Rusan]

i asked him if it was going to be slower to make tiny custom threads in each plug instead of just press fitting them and he said "maybe 10 years ago" so apparently this kind of precision isn't difficult anymore if you know what you're doing on modern medium-high end tool shop equipment. or maybe he's just insane. i can't tell.

It sounds like he has a good CNC lathe with (likely) a live tooling setup. The machine knows where its spindle's rotational position is at all times, much like the camshaft and crankshaft position sensors in your car's engine. I'm sure things are waaaaay more advanced now that when I operated CNC around 25 years ago, and you can start an operation at a precise, given point.

I'm glad you've found a local guy with the right know-how and tenacity, which will hopefully create a whole new situation that'll be a LOT less stressful for you.

 

[bremusound]

@soliloqueen At this level of craftmanship and achieving such tight tolerances, you should consider making k50/53 sdc capsules!

 

[soliloqueen]

@soliloqueen At this level of craftmanship and achieving such tight tolerances, you should consider making k50/53 sdc capsules!

i wouldn't mind trying just to see if we could do the whole assembly tbh. we could try doing one with pen film or something

 

[bremusound]

i wouldn't mind trying just to see if we could do the whole assembly tbh. we could try doing one with pen film or something

Let me know if you need one for measuring. I have one which i poorly reskinned with mylar, no problem if you would disassemble it

Here‘s some information about the contruction btw.

http://www.saturn-sound.com/Curio's/neumann's kk50 - 2nd type k50 capsule.htm

 

[klem]

i wouldn't mind trying just to see if we could do the whole assembly tbh. we could try doing one with pen film or something

not to assume you are taking requests, but i would love to build a DIY'd stereo multi-patterned SDC tube mic a la SM2, which i don't see the original maker ever reissuing.

 

[soapfoot]

Wow, sounds like you’ve found a kindred spirit in your machinist

Go Arienne go!

 

[ZHOUJUN]

I've done some Neumann microphone repair over the years and disassembled a lot of Neumann's Capsules,At present, most of the accessories for microphone capsules in the world are produced in China, and some are made in other countries. They all have some differences in internal structure from the old Neumann. I don't want to describe these differences. Many people actually know it. As for whether the timbre is close, I I have reservations, but the structure is definitely related to sound. The special structure of the capsule is destined to be affected by many factors, that is, the consistency and quality control of the product, because even a small change in the distance between the skin and the plate will cause Resulting in a very big difference in sound.
Sometimes to make a truly double-sided qualified product, you need to choose from several or even dozens of them. I have also discussed this issue with some microphone engineers. Most of them explained to me that the manufacturing cost is an important factor. Comparing capsules that cost tens of dollars to capsules that cost hundreds of dollars is unscientific in itself,For example, in the early years of Neumann’s treatment of copper plates, It is plated with real gold. If a capsule is remanufactured according to Neumann's early process standards, the price may be similar to that of Neumann. There will be no market for this at all. As far as I know, few manufacturers will destroy substandard products. Neumann has always Since then, have also been seeking to reduce the labor costs of capsules, including some reforms in mechanized production. I wonder if this is the reason why we don’t like Neumann’s modern capsules.

Finally, I hope that someone will actually copy the early Neumann capsule. Of course, it may have appeared, but I haven't found it. I hope someone can tell me.

 

[Recording Engineer]

not to assume you are taking requests, but i would love to build a DIY'd stereo multi-patterned SDC tube mic a la SM2, which i don't see the original maker ever reissuing.

Agreed. I’ve, for some years, been liking the idea of an SM2-inspired mic, but with M/S-to-L/R only, and in a 47-style body, with the mid-capsule oriented end-address and side-capsule oriented side-address.

Would probably just use a pair of Jensen JT-MB-Ds. People say just use chips at the line-level stage for the conversion. Yeah, it sounds the best, I know. BUT NO!

However, what capsules should I use? That’s always been my dilemma!

 

[OneRoomStudio]

Just to add to the chorus, I've always thought the KM56 was one of the coolest mics ever, but could stand to be updated a bit mechanically. Having a modern capsule option would be amazing.

 

[soliloqueen]

I've done some Neumann microphone repair over the years and disassembled a lot of Neumann's Capsules,At present, most of the accessories for microphone capsules in the world are produced in China, and some are made in other countries. They all have some differences in internal structure from the old Neumann. I don't want to describe these differences. Many people actually know it. As for whether the timbre is close, I I have reservations, but the structure is definitely related to sound. The special structure of the capsule is destined to be affected by many factors, that is, the consistency and quality control of the product, because even a small change in the distance between the skin and the plate will cause Resulting in a very big difference in sound.
Sometimes to make a truly double-sided qualified product, you need to choose from several or even dozens of them. I have also discussed this issue with some microphone engineers. Most of them explained to me that the manufacturing cost is an important factor. Comparing capsules that cost tens of dollars to capsules that cost hundreds of dollars is unscientific in itself,For example, in the early years of Neumann’s treatment of copper plates, It is plated with real gold. If a capsule is remanufactured according to Neumann's early process standards, the price may be similar to that of Neumann. There will be no market for this at all. As far as I know, few manufacturers will destroy substandard products. Neumann has always Since then, have also been seeking to reduce the labor costs of capsules, including some reforms in mechanized production. I wonder if this is the reason why we don’t like Neumann’s modern capsules.

Finally, I hope that someone will actually copy the early Neumann capsule. Of course, it may have appeared, but I haven't found it. I hope someone can tell me.

A big reason why modern neumann capsules sound worse than the same exact models produced previously is because they kept collapsing from environmental static charge when shipped to colder climates. The ability of mylar to discharge static is reduced as humidity is reduced. Eventually it's reduced below a point where the static can travel into the gold and be discharged. The plastic itself (not the gold, as in correct operation) becomes charged and attaches itself to the backplate. They tried just about every other way to solve this problem, for decades. Tons and tons of anatomical changes to the capsule centered around defeating this issue. At the end, they literally tried putting little dots of plastic on the backplate itself to hold the diaphragm up, lol. Even that didn't work. Eventually they finally gave up and changed the tension and therefore the sound of the capsule. Mine are built to original spec, and I've been thinking about shipping them with a disclaimer card not to store or operate them below 35 or 40% relative humidity.

Here is an unfortunate accurate k47 of mine that encountered 18% relative humidity. This issue you're seeing right here is Neumann's personal white whale:


When the diaphragm releases, the sound of the capsule is not always affected, but it leaves telltale damage: tiny, almost invisible circles in the gold where the backplate holes are. The dreaded "neumann capsule stored in a storage unit syndrome" often seen on ebay capsules.

German capsules (and my capsules), use electrical mylar, which has a rough microsurface and consistent mechanical properties. Most Chinese capsules use optical mylar meant for lamination. This has a smooth microsurface and doesn't collect environmental static charge as readily, which is why this issue is almost never seen in Chinese capsules. It also has very inconsistent mechanical properties, which contributes to the difference in sound slightly. This isn't a matter of mylar quality. There's perfectly good chinese mylar out there. It's that they're using film that's produced with the wrong qualities/target usage.

 

[ccaudle]

I've been thinking about shipping them with a disclaimer card not to store or operate them below 35 or 40% relative humidity.

Won't be an issue here on the south coast of the US, but I guess people who live places cold enough to need a heater all winter should store their mics in a humidor? Maybe not with your cigars, I just looked it up and apparently 70% RH is recommended for cigars, but that seems high for microphones. Maybe there is something that can keep them at 50% RH?

 

[ZHOUJUN]

A big reason why modern neumann capsules sound worse than the same exact models produced previously is because they kept collapsing from environmental static charge when shipped to colder climates. The ability of mylar to discharge static is reduced as humidity is reduced. Eventually it's reduced below a point where the static can travel into the gold and be discharged. The plastic itself (not the gold, as in correct operation) becomes charged and attaches itself to the backplate. They tried just about every other way to solve this problem, for decades. Tons and tons of anatomical changes to the capsule centered around defeating this issue. At the end, they literally tried putting little dots of plastic on the backplate itself to hold the diaphragm up, lol. Even that didn't work. Eventually they finally gave up and changed the tension and therefore the sound of the capsule. Mine are built to original spec, and I've been thinking about shipping them with a disclaimer card not to store or operate them below 35 or 40% relative humidity.

Here is an unfortunate accurate k47 of mine that encountered 18% relative humidity. This issue you're seeing right here is Neumann's personal white whale:
View attachment 141236

When the diaphragm releases, the sound of the capsule is not always affected, but it leaves telltale damage: tiny, almost invisible circles in the gold where the backplate holes are. The dreaded "neumann capsule stored in a storage unit syndrome" often seen on ebay capsules.

German capsules (and my capsules), use electrical mylar, which has a rough microsurface and consistent mechanical properties. Most Chinese capsules use optical mylar meant for lamination. This has a smooth microsurface and doesn't collect environmental static charge as readily, which is why this issue is almost never seen in Chinese capsules. It also has very inconsistent mechanical properties, which contributes to the difference in sound slightly. This isn't a matter of mylar quality. There's perfectly good chinese mylar out there. It's that they're using film that's produced with the wrong qualities/target usage.

This is a Neumann K49, probably produced in the 90s. The diaphragm has large wrinkles. Before repair, there was no noise and there was output. The high frequency was slightly lacking. This is attributed to the exquisite craftsmanship of the early Neumann plates and diaphragms. I In the clean box, it was stretched and repaired. Now it seems that although there are a few small holes, the sound is normal. I have also repaired many modern Neumanns. Some capsules, the skin looks very intact, but cannot be repaired. I think it is because the back of the skin is ionized or loses tension, and it returns to normal after re-skinning. There are also some 60S and 70S capsules that are severely damaged by oxidation, but There is still sound output and no ignition noise. This shows that the production process materials of early Neumann are different from modern ones.