Soliloqueen's k87(k67) and k47 capsules

[157audio]

I’m using my turnstile mic with flat k47 on mandolin this morning and it’s awesome. I’m using it in cardioid and I left the high pass on the mic flat, then on the channel, a high pass at 96hz and a very tiny 1db cut at 211 hz just for tone. I wanted to be able to hear the mic as it sounds since it’s the first time I’m using it, so I decided to high pass at the console rather than the mic so I could switch it in and out to listen- even with high pass off completely there’s nothing crazy going on in the low end).

We’ve been using an AT pro70 clipped to his music stand for a while on mandolin, and it generally sounds great but when he really lays into it, the upper mid can get a little spiky. That’s not happening at all with the flat 47. Even with the inexpensive circuit in this mic, it sounds beautifully full and is sitting in the mic nicely. It helps that Lou is a great player of course, but this is capturing him nicely. He’s right in front of the drummer, who plays really controlled, but the room is very live and there is no drum shield or anything onstage, and drum bleed is not presenting any issue, so the off axis sound is nice.

Here’s a photo, looks like a mic in front of a mandolin….

These capsules are great!

 

[amplexus]

i'll start shipping k47s tomorrow. i had some peeves with the chinese k47 saddle so i designed a superior version and they're printing right now:
View attachment 142246

Getting a 3d printer for my shop almost paid for itself just being able to print on-demand mic saddles, esp for oddball vintage mics or retrofitting new capsules.

And of course the added bonus that it is so much fun to watch

 

[micolas]

I’m using my turnstile mic with flat k47 on mandolin this morning and it’s awesome. I’m using it in cardioid and I left the high pass on the mic flat, then on the channel, a high pass at 96hz and a very tiny 1db cut at 211 hz just for tone. I wanted to be able to hear the mic as it sounds since it’s the first time I’m using it, so I decided to high pass at the console rather than the mic so I could switch it in and out to listen- even with high pass off completely there’s nothing crazy going on in the low end).

We’ve been using an AT pro70 clipped to his music stand for a while on mandolin, and it generally sounds great but when he really lays into it, the upper mid can get a little spiky. That’s not happening at all with the flat 47. Even with the inexpensive circuit in this mic, it sounds beautifully full and is sitting in the mic nicely. It helps that Lou is a great player of course, but this is capturing him nicely. He’s right in front of the drummer, who plays really controlled, but the room is very live and there is no drum shield or anything onstage, and drum bleed is not presenting any issue, so the off axis sound is nice.

Here’s a photo, looks like a mic in front of a mandolin….

These capsules are great!

Wow! Well, can we hear that beautiful mandolin?
And separately, can you do a comparative test between the stock microphone with the K67 and the one equipped with the k47f?

 

[157audio]

Wow! Well, can we hear that beautiful mandolin?
And separately, can you do a comparative test between the stock microphone with the K67 and the one equipped with the k47f?

Keep in mind it’s streaming mix on a post fader matrix that I can’t really monitor while doing live sound, but go to an hour and 15 minutes (very close to the end) and you’ll hear him soloing

https://www.youtube.com/live/8RDtbvj5ZVo?si=ybWju-J8qPleb9jA


And yes, my neighbor is a voiceover artist (one of his accounts is the voice of Smokey bear) and we plan to do that when he returns from his Christmas trip. If I test it with my voice you’ll be very sad…

 

[micolas]

Keep in mind it’s streaming mix on a post fader matrix that I can’t really monitor while doing live sound, but go to an hour and 15 minutes (very close to the end) and you’ll hear him soloing

https://www.youtube.com/live/8RDtbvj5ZVo?si=ybWju-J8qPleb9jA


And yes, my neighbor is a voiceover anrtist (one of his accounts is the voice of Smokey bear) and we plan to do that when he returns from his Christmas trip. If I test it with my voice you’ll be very sad…

Congratulations on all the work! I listened with pleasure. Thank you!

 

[OneRoomStudio]

Hi @soliloqueen !
I have sometimes wondered if through the long, intense, challenging and demanding journey towards a K87 as close as possible to the historical original, among hundreds of prototypes, you made, intentionally or accidentally, a capsule let's call it 'K87flat' which mounted in a linear, flat circuit, without deemphasis and in a correct headbasket/body, etc., to reproduce the frequency response (perhaps the behavior in general) of a U87i microphone or U87ai correct.
Yes, 3U does something similar, maybe others too, but in my ears not faithful enough.
So, in short, my question would be: Will there be a capsule like the one described above? ' Arienne K87F '
Thank you!

I wonder how much of the U67/U87 “sound” is the sound of phase shift in the treble frequencies due to the deemphasis circuitry. A bright capsule that is “EQ’d” flat may not sound or behave the same way as a flat capsule with no deemphasis. The phase shift may not be apparent as a solo mic, but in multi-mic setups (drums, amps, etc.), it might contribute to the idea that U67s/87s have a “softer” or “tame” high end.

 

[Whoops]

it might contribute to the idea that U67s/87s have a “softer” or “tame” high end.

In my personal experience all the U67 I've used over the years had a “softer” or “tame” high end when compared to the U87s (different versions)

As for the U87 I don't find it's "soft" or "tame" in the high end, it's not Dark and it's not over-bright in my opinion, but it's bright, specially in the region between 5khz and 12khz, even with the de-emphasis circuit.
Most my colleague engineers find the same.

Maybe you guys have a different opinion, but I've never seen the U87 associated to a soft/tame high end.

 

[soliloqueen]

In my personal experience all the U67 I've used over the years had a “softer” or “tame” high end when compared to the U87s (different versions)

As for the U87 I don't find it's "soft" or "tame" in the high end, it's not Dark and it's not over-bright in my opinion, but it's bright, specially in the region between 5khz and 12khz, even with the de-emphasis circuit.
Most my colleague engineers find the same.

Maybe you guys have a different opinion, but I've never seen the U87 associated to a soft/tame high end.

it's funny because older vintage k67s have way more high end boost than modern k67s used in u87ais, so it's gotta be a circuit difference

 

[OneRoomStudio]

In my personal experience all the U67 I've used over the years had a “softer” or “tame” high end when compared to the U87s (different versions)

As for the U87 I don't find it's "soft" or "tame" in the high end, it's not Dark and it's not over-bright in my opinion, but it's bright, specially in the region between 5khz and 12khz, even with the de-emphasis circuit.
Most my colleague engineers find the same.

Maybe you guys have a different opinion, but I've never seen the U87 associated to a soft/tame high end.

I didn’t mean that they sound “dark” at all - just that they’re not strident or “hard” sounding. Individual U67s can vary a lot due to age and feedback capacitor value. Same with U87s, although U87ai’s seem to vary less.

They all sound less “open” or “airy” than say, a 414, or a Milab mic, which have fairly flat capsules into flat circuits.

 

[Paul W]

I wonder how much of the U67/U87 “sound” is the sound of phase shift in the treble frequencies due to the deemphasis circuitry. A bright capsule that is “EQ’d” flat may not sound or behave the same way as a flat capsule with no deemphasis. The phase shift may not be apparent as a solo mic, but in multi-mic setups (drums, amps, etc.), it might contribute to the idea that U67s/87s have a “softer” or “tame” high end.

My impression is that microphones mostly act rather like minimum phase devices, with the about same phase shifts associated with bass or treble rolloff whether you do it with the physics of the capsule or with EQ.

If that's right, you can't get away from phase shifts by picking a mic that is naturally darker, and a lot of people are going to a lot of trouble to avoid using EQ for no good reason.

Maybe @ricardo can comment on this... I believe he did some relevant experiments in the past.

 

[soapfoot]

My experience is that older U87s tend to sound (as a population) different than the ones from the last 30-40 years or so

 

[micolas]

I wonder how much of the U67/U87 “sound” is the sound of phase shift in the treble frequencies due to the deemphasis circuitry. A bright capsule that is “EQ’d” flat may not sound or behave the same way as a flat capsule with no deemphasis. The phase shift may not be apparent as a solo mic, but in multi-mic setups (drums, amps, etc.), it might contribute to the idea that U67s/87s have a “softer” or “tame” high end.

Hi, OMS! When I asked the question I was thinking about the use of a single microphone in the scenario of taking over a voice, instrument, in the studio, in an acoustically controlled environment, not live. No way can I afford to put relatively expensive microphones in the way of a drummer's sticks
But, your question is very good, any sound engineer, recording or live, manages this kind of problems all the time.
I'm really glad you brought up the subject.
As I know you are very fond of simulations and measurements, it would be great if you could measure the phase anomalies produced by deemphasis in the U87 topology, in an original Neumann or a good clone, even in an ors87 of yours that you I like the way it sounds the most. In this case, it would be interesting to see in what proportion the degree of de-accentuation produces when and how much phase shift.
On the other hand, in real life, the phase shift can be multiple, complex. It occurs without exception in the case of microphones used in a setup with many microphones and depends on the characteristics of each microphone, on the spatial location between them, distances, angles, and relative to the surrounding acoustic space, reflexions, refractions, resonances,
absorptions, comb filter, pressure, temperature, etc.etc
It would be possible that the interactions between the microphones do not cause a taming, attenuation, sweetening of the mid-highs/highs, but on the contrary they accentuate them by summation in phase, resulting in harsher, harder, non-musical sounds.
Are we using identical microphones for all sources? How do we align them in phase for all frequencies/wavelengths?
Or do we use the right microphone for each source, place it for the best sound, for acceptable bleeding (or sometimes even desirable, usable for more realism), use noise-gate with different parameters specific to each source? There are many work scenarios and this is where experience and artistic choice come into play, finally obtaining the desired result.

So, in the best DIY spirit, let's find some Answers or other new Questions together!

 

[sleen]

I received my cardioid/omni K87 capsules today! Having two spare electronics of the TLM67 and two TLM103 bodies, i put all this together as „compact cardioid“ versions of the TLM67. Then, i have a pair of Neumann TLM67s for comparison, and all i can say is that @soliloqueen pretty much nailed it! Low end, midrange are absolutely identical to the Neumanns, the high end of all my Neumann K67s are varying a little bit, and the high end of the Ari K87 is definitely within this spread! These capsules are terrific! Thank you very much for making these!

Thats awesome! I have two TLM67-boards as well waiting to be a mic again. Are these 103 bodies from China? The 67-boards seem to fit nicely.
Cheers

 

[ricardo]

My impression is that microphones mostly act rather like minimum phase devices, with the about same phase shifts associated with bass or treble rolloff whether you do it with the physics of the capsule or with EQ.

If that's right, you can't get away from phase shifts by picking a mic that is naturally darker, and a lot of people are going to a lot of trouble to avoid using EQ for no good reason.

Microphones are mostly Minimum Phase and so are the acoustic methods used to twiddle their response. So analogue electronic EQ is valid and flattening their response will also improve their transient response.

But some digital EQs use EVIL Linear Phase FIRs which will worsen the transient response.

There are some regimes where microphones are non minimum phase but these are usually unimportant. The 2 most common ones are ..

The back response on cardioids .. unless you are in the habit of making that your main pickup

Also double diaphragm LDCs set to Fig-8 or Cardioid become Omni at LF (VLF?) and that phenomena and the response funnies it introduces is sorta non minimum phase.

 

[Whoops]

it's funny because older vintage k67s have way more high end boost than modern k67s used in u87ais, so it's gotta be a circuit difference

I have really no idea, all the U67 I've used up until this day were vintage units, at different studios.
I don't remember ever using a newer U67 unit.

The U67 always being softer in the high end when compared to an U87 (vintage or 87Ai) was consistent.

I don't know the reasons, but I know how to choose one or the other for the recording tasks I'm presented to

 

[analag]

i'll start shipping k47s tomorrow. i had some peeves with the chinese k47 saddle so i designed a superior version and they're printing right now:

How is that going?

 

[bremusound]

Yes they are from China, quality is good and they even have the rubber inserts from the TLM103 - in which the TLM 67 pcbs fit perfectly.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005006201938977.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2deu

Thats awesome! I have two TLM67-boards as well waiting to be a mic again. Are these 103 bodies from China? The 67-boards seem to fit nicely.
Cheers

 

[soliloqueen]

How is that going?

pretty good, just bagging everything up. should all be done by tomorrow night. i spent all yesterday manually re-sorting the capsules to make sure the bins were accurate since the capsules don't all charge the same. i'm going to re-implement the FR system I think. I also re-took stock counts. We have 50 k47vs and 125 k47fs right now. the current stock counts were a low estimate i put up. once I ship the outstanding orders I'll update the site stock counts with the revised number of each bin

 

[soliloqueen]

i have a high index of suspicion for these non-in-house backplate k87 capsules. this factory has been in business for many years. they know how to cut costs in ways that are supremely hard to test that might not affect on-axis sound. if you run into an issue with a unit, especially the mids of a unit, let me know. If any off ones make it through, I'll sub them out with in house metal after we start.