Sustainable living....

[PRR]

> Underfloor heating can use lower temperature water and is more efficient than radiators.

Not lot more efficient when you come from thousand degree fire.

As I said above, heat-pump is a lot about how BIG your heat exchangers can be. A small exchanger must run hot for the same BTU (KW) of heat. Coming down from fire (or electric), this is effective. Pumping up from Maine/Madison air, every extra degree is more work for the pump. Less heat for your power dollar. While a large-area warm-air duct system would be intrusive, well-developed technology (plastic pipes) turns the whole floor into heat exchanger, and typically runs just above desired air temp.

FWIW, in the US "hydronic" heat is deluxe and most houses run hot-air in ducts. Back when we took 70% eff and 160 F (71C) HOT-air, duct sizes were manageable. My 95% system runs warm 105F (40C) air, and the air volume was a constraint in my design. Larger ducts would be too much rip-up work. I was forced to put in a proper cool return.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

, this is only shoulder-season economy and not a winter solution.

That's pretty much what it is over here, at least in the northern part of the country. The whole issue is distorted by the importance given to energy savings; there have been considerable incentives, to the point I had an offer for a 14kW heat-pump at 20 kEuro (more than twice the normal price at the time), but backed by a 50% tax reduction and a zero-interest loan. And a predicted 5-year return on investment that would have happened only with the right conjunction of planets and the blessing of a shaman  :.
At the time, a number of plumbers became heat-pump specialists overnight. Now, 5 years later, the incentives are gone, heat pumps are used only in so-called low energetic consumption buildings. However, technology has made some progress, with CoP of 5+ (the problem is to know how the CoP changes with conditions...), and the prices have really gone down.
It seems Scandinavia has made a massive conversion to heat-pumps, even for retrofit in domestic houses...hmmmm. I may have another look.
Anyway, it seems the issue is still heavily political, with some lobbying by the European heat Pump Association (non-profit! Ah Ah).

 

[ruffrecords]

Anyway, it seems the issue is still heavily political, with some lobbying by the European heat Pump Association (non-profit! Ah Ah).

You are right. In the UK there are incentives for building energy efficient homes and/or upgrading existing ones (Renewable Heat Incentive) that can give payments for up to 7 years for systems that help reduce CO2 emissions.

Cheers

Ian

 

[musika]

We are all, literally, living like kings.

Article this morning on NPR.org....

http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/12/08/504790589/could-you-power-your-home-with-a-bike

 

[JohnRoberts]

Just for chuckles I looked at the overnight low temperature for my main living space (unheated at night). The temperature dipped down to the low 50's (indoors) last night.  My (heated only at night) bedroom was more comfortable at 66'. (I have cheap logging temp & humidity meters in both areas. )

In the margin this reduces heat loss that is proportional to the temperature delta or difference. So if outdoor temp low is 25', the 30' temp difference below indoor temp and outdoor will leak less heat than if indoor temp was a toasty 75' with 50' delta.  So 3/5 the heat loss for this hypothetical case.

I don't heat my indoors to 75' (more like high 60's daytime) and it doesn't typically drop down into the 20's at night outdoors every night, but it does happen. Weather report is calling for 22' low tonight. I do not expect any sympathy from my friends living up north of me, who are getting a visit from Canada's arctic air this week, or live in Canada so don't need to be visited by cold.

JR

PS: The coldest I think I ever experienced personally, was walking guard duty at Ft Riley KS, guarding buildings in the middle of the night during a KS winter. The cold was made worse by the low activity level, walking around the outside of the empty buildings.

 

[JohnRoberts]

An annoying anecdote about my energy saving strategy.  :  A couple weeks ago in the middle of the night (of course) my smoke alarm started chirping the low battery warning. Since it was the middle of the night I just removed the battery and went back to sleep...

The next day I checked the battery with my VOM and it registered more than 9V so clearly not dead.

Long story short, I took it apart twice to check solder connections looking for another reason for the chirps, but finally experimented and discovered I could make it chirp by placing just the battery in my freezer. My main room and hallway where the smoke detector is mounted gets down into the 50's at night when unheated.

Apparently smoke detectors warn at just below 9V to make sure the partially depleted battery still has enough energy to make a loud alarm for long enough to wake sleeping humans.

Just a little FYI for people with smoke detectors in unheated areas, batteries are chemical reactions so slowed by cold temps.

JR

 

[Kingston]

I pay $3/bulb (3-pack or 8-pack) and in any long-hours socket I think pay-back is under 1 year. Figure both electric and bulb-replacement costs. (Also self-cost to go up ladders.) Just do it. (OTOH, my garage gets 10 hours a year, electric bill cost is trivial, replacement is easy, and I am just starting to see replacement costs. For "1,000W equiv" light, it will be basic incandescent until LED prices come a lot lower.)

Our family was an early full-LED adopter, forced by me with some basic calculations. Electric bill was cut clean to 1/3. Turns out we like light, with heat provided through other means. The power company here is producing solid data that this has kept giving at the same rate ever since. Funny looking at that sharp dive with an initial cost of LED purchase.

I have a litter box of 60W bulbs that may never get used. Heating appliances?

PS. 1/20 LEDS have died since inception 2014 january.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Our family was an early full-LED adopter, forced by me with some basic calculations. Electric bill was cut clean to 1/3. Turns out we like light, with heat provided through other means. The power company here is producing solid data that this has kept giving at the same rate ever since. Funny looking at that sharp dive with an initial cost of LED purchase.

I have a litter box of 60W bulbs that may never get used. Heating appliances?

PS. 1/20 LEDS have died since inception 14 january.

I have a pile of dead CFL lamps, and only one or two failed LED lamps.

I have an application for your 60W incandescent bulbs. I have a 3x 60W fixture mounted under my computer desk, to add some localized heat during cold mornings.  I have the lamps on a dimmer so I can even vary the heat output.  I already had one of the 60W bulbs burn out.  The reliability of the modern LED lamps is much appreciated.  8)

JR

 

[mattamatta]

I have a litter box of 60W bulbs that may never get used. Heating appliances?

Why pay to heat a filament in a glass tube when it has no signal electrodes? 
You could be using that power to heat your surroundings by using some sort of ridiculously-overkill-for-the-application tubes!

 

[Brian Roth]

Why pay to heat a filament in a glass tube when it has no signal electrodes? 
You could be using that power to heat your surroundings by using some sort of ridiculously-overkill-for-the-application tubes!

This should be a good choice:

http://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/75/8974.pdf

The "cooling" water from a pair of them should heat a large space while also supplying 2 million Watts of audio power to drive your control room speakers.

Is that enough overkill?  lol

Bri

 

[PRR]

> a litter box of 60W bulbs that may never get used. Heating appliances?

Save them or sell them. Anybody making wall-power gear NEEDS a lamp-limiter for the initial smoke-test. This MUST be incandescent (including "halogen"), NOT CFL or LED "equivalents".

60W lamp would do for most preamps or get a Fender Champ into half-life so you find your mistakes without burning the house down. Four 60W parallel will half-start most large amps. This is just to clear the builder-error smoke (if any), don't expect gear to run "right" on a lamp limiter.

 

[Kingston]

I have an application for your 60W incandescent bulbs. I have a 3x 60W fixture mounted under my computer desk, to add some localized heat during cold mornings.

I remember you mentioned it few years back. I have a similar sized heat source with an old style "server" computer blowing its ventilation almost directly to my legs.

In close proximity there's also the 2000W of tube gear for the colder mornings beyond -20 degrees C.

 

[Kingston]

Why pay to heat a filament in a glass tube when it has no signal electrodes? 
You could be using that power to heat your surroundings by using some sort of ridiculously-overkill-for-the-application tubes!

That DaveP preamp with EL84 as output would definitely fall under the category. Just lovely!

 

[Johnny2Bad]

How does the electricity use for the heat pump compare?

I looked into a heat pump system and was told my yard was much too small to put one it. Problem with living in a city.

There are two ways to do it. You can use the buried  field style (which your yard is apparently too small to utilize) or you can drill two holes.

You stop when you find water. The two small diameter wells can be relatively close together; certainly any city yard is more than large enough. The temperature differential is pretty much automatic, because you are going to remove heat from the feed line and deposit the cooler water in the return line, after your heat exchanger has sucked a degree or two out of it ... it doesn't have to be a large amount, it just has to be *something*.

That type is quite common around here, as there is a massive underground lake covering pretty much the entire populated area, so it might vary how deep you have to go, but you are guaranteed to hit water sooner or later.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

An annoying anecdote about my energy saving strategy.  :  A couple weeks ago in the middle of the night (of course) my smoke alarm started chirping the low battery warning. Since it was the middle of the night I just removed the battery and went back to sleep...

The next day I checked the battery with my VOM and it registered more than 9V so clearly not dead.

Long story short, I took it apart twice to check solder connections looking for another reason for the chirps, but finally experimented and discovered I could make it chirp by placing just the battery in my freezer. My main room and hallway where the smoke detector is mounted gets down into the 50's at night when unheated.

Apparently smoke detectors warn at just below 9V to make sure the partially depleted battery still has enough energy to make a loud alarm for long enough to wake sleeping humans.

Just a little FYI for people with smoke detectors in unheated areas, batteries are chemical reactions so slowed by cold temps.

JR

In another life I looked after summer resorts in winter. Every single smoke detector has to be disabled (AC with battery backup) because they chirp constantly when the building is unheated, and there were about 40 buildings.

With regard to incandescent lighting, it's poor efficiency is based on wanted output (light) versus unwanted output (heat). If the heat is wanted they are 100% efficient. BC Hydro (Canada) published a paper about 10 years ago that calculated the increased electric and natural gas utility load that a province-wide change to Compact Fluorescent Lamps (CFL) would involve. It was far from trivial.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

How does the electricity use for the heat pump compare?

I looked into a heat pump system and was told my yard was much too small to put one it. Problem with living in a city.

Well, a "cooling-and-heating" air con is a heat pump; it can be installed almost anywhere. Probably teh CoP is not as good as a big heat pump...