the Poor Man 660 support thread

[[silent:arts]]

[quote author="mitsos"]Also, on the PM660 list, the first Wima is 220nF, but the Mouser one is listed as .022uF or 22nF right? I found 3 different MKS2 .22uF
505-MKS20.22/63/10
505-MKS2.22/63/5T
505-MKS20.22/63/5
lead spacing is 5mm for all of them.[/quote]
220nF or 0.22µF is right.
505-MKS20.22/63/10 is fine.

if there is anything unclear in the Parts-List always double check with the silkscreen:
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PM660_rev01-SilkScreen.pdf

 

[khstudio]

[quote author="mitsos"]Hi Volker,

Also, for the US peeps, Mouser is out of the big 10uF Wima, so I called TAW. They're giving me a much better price, so I'm getting all these and whatever other Wimas I need from them. Check them out.

Thanks again Volker and Analag[/quote]

Volker - Are the 10uF Wima the main Output Caps :?:

If so the it's a good place to spend the extra money (They're like $12 EACH :shock: )

SOLEN Caps may be a good option here... very good & cheaper :idea:
Volker - do you think they'll fit?

Also... having trouble finding the right "heat sinks" using the numbers in the parts list... like at Mouser & Digikey. Anyone have any luck with these???

Thanks

 

[[silent:arts]]

Kevin
the Poor Man doesn't have any caps in the signal path.
the 10µF Wimas are in the sidechain, no need to spend extra money.
my first PCB design (rev 0.0001) was with Solen caps, but analag and me decided to go the smaller (and cheaper) way.
haven't seen any cheaper solen than Wima yet ?
look at the silkscreen PDF, it is 1:1.
the Solen 10µF I used for the D-AOC won't fit.

 

[khstudio]

Thanks man :thumb:

I should have my Boards & Schematic soon, so I'm going to wait to order parts until I see where they go.

$25 for 2 Caps that aren't in the signal path is ridiculous.


YES the Solens can be had cheaper than the WIMA's (at least for this cap)

http://www.tubedepot.com/solen.html
Solen "Fast" Cap 10µF / 630V

CP-SO-1000-630V $5.30

MOUSER - Wima 10uf
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Produc...virtualkey50520000virtualkey505-MKP410/250/10

 

[khstudio]

[quote author="[silent:arts]"]Kevin
but analag and me decided to go the smaller (and cheaper) way.

the Solen 10µF I used for the D-AOC won't fit.[/quote]

By Smaller & cheaper do you mean:
2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm ???

I was wondering what the "Option" was for.

Also, if that WIMA cap really isn't needed... why is it in the parts list ???

2 x 10µ WIMA MKP4 C2,C4
www.mouser.com 505-MKP410/250/10
www.farnell.com n.a.
www.conrad.com 450535
www.reichelt.de n.a.

2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm

 

[[silent:arts]]

[quote author="khstudio"]I should have my Boards & Schematic soon, so I'm going to wait to order parts until I see where they go.[/quote]
yes, yours have been shipped with the first shipment I did.
and yes, if you don't like "soldering by numbers" waiting for everything will be best.
[quote author="khstudio"]$25 for 2 Caps that aren't in the signal path is ridiculous.[/quote]
don't agree here. sidechain caps can be important too.
btw, since germany was out of stock I ordered 12 of them at mousers for the prototype testing. this was + shipping + taxes + fedex tax handling fees.
[quote author="khstudio"]YES the Solens can be had cheaper than the WIMA's (at least for this cap)[/quote]
they are hard to get in europe and some other parts of the world.
remember, this is an international project. it is always hard to source which parts can be purchased in which country. WIMA should be more common than Solen.
[quote author="khstudio"]By Smaller & cheaper do you mean:
2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm ???[/quote]
no, those are optional PSU bypass caps.
cheaper and smaller is the WIMA solution regarding the Solens.
cheaper at least in most parts of the world.
[quote author="khstudio"]Also, if that WIMA cap really isn't needed... why is it in the parts list ???[/quote]
since they are needed. and everybody always cry for a parts list.
the parts list is done for the components the PCB is designed for.
btw, the populated PCB will look like **** without those WIMAs :green:

 

[khstudio]

cheaper and smaller is the WIMA solution regarding the Solens.
cheaper at least in most parts of the world.

I was thinking that after I posted.

Printing the 1:1 PDF Layout is helping a LOT. :thumb:

Your right... doesn't look like the 10uf SOLENs will fit. :sad:


Thanks for your help man... sorry about all the questions.

 

[emrr]

Boards and info received. Don't see these issues addressed anywhere:

Placement of 5K meter trim; in series to meter?

Adjustment of trimmers on boards; assume RV1 and RV2 adjust to +/-17 VDC, but what about RV3 and RV6?

 

[mitsos]

[quote author="kazper"]1N4007 is mouser #512-1N4007 and 462,464 Can Ship Immediately
Hopefully after your order there is some left over for me.[/quote]
I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!!


[quote author="khstudio"]Thanks man :thumb:

I should have my Boards & Schematic soon, so I'm going to wait to order parts until I see where they go.

$25 for 2 Caps that aren't in the signal path is ridiculous.

[/quote]

Kevin,

I'm getting mine from TAW for $4-something each..

 

[MartyMart]

****, I ordered the Solen 10uf's like the D-AOC so those won't fit !
If anyone in Europe has or will get some extra Wima 10uf;s then let me know
and I'll have a few off you ...

Marty.

 

[jrfred453]

I was getting part numbers online from TAW for the Wimas. Total for all Wima caps came to $21. I thought about organizing a group buy for US builders but we wouldn't save very much unless we reached 100 sets.

Mitsos- Are you getting the MKP4 for that price?

 

[mitsos]

Mitsos- Are you getting the MKP4 for that price?

That's what I was told. Maybe since I had ordered from them before, I don't know. I am placing my order on Monday.. They told me they were giving me the 25+ price, even though I was only ordering 2. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure they are the correct ones, because their site lists them at 5-something each, and Mouser sells them for $12. Anyway, this is TAW's number: MKP4 10/250/10 LS37.5 RoHS

Volker, can you confirm this is the same?

If so, I doubt there'd be a problem to get this price, since there are so many interested, and since most, like me, would order more caps. I could send an email on Monday to the sales person handling my stuff let her know there'll be a flood of requests for this same cap.

EDIT. Thinking better about it, it may be a good idea to develop a relationship with TAW so we can get discounted prices for smaller quantities. Between all of us we buy shitloads of Wimas. It would be a bit more costly for them to handle separate orders, but it would guarantee we would not buy from Mouser anymore.

 

[emrr]

[quote author="Moby"]I'm talking about DC signal passing through transformer. If the current is different difference will saturate TX. So, I ask does Analag knows how much difference space is available with EDCOR TX. That can be easy determined by knowing the TX inductance and current flowing through. Unfortunately I still don't have transformers and want to select the tubes :? Anyway it will be good to know that details :green:[/quote]

requires 250V @ 80mA

A quick semi-educated guess, looking at the schematic, suggests around 50 mA through the side chain amp output transformer to the 5687's, and 20-25 mA at most through the audio amp output transformer to the 6BC8's, with no gain reduction. I'll be interested to see how far off my guess is. Differences in current flow through each side can cause low frequency losses in a PP transformer; we know that. I have not seen a specific test on this specific transformer. NewYorkDave published some tests concerning single ended DC usage of these transformers, which one can extrapolate from, if feeling theoretical. His graphs do not seem to be loading ATM, or maybe anymore at all:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=10180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=edcor&start=15

But the message seems clear; a few mA deviation side to side appears acceptable, and it would take pretty severe mismatch of tubes to get outside that range. True with most PP DC carrying transformers. The published response graphs for the PM660 do not indicate special efforts towards tube current balance.

Finding perfect tube match on a tester will get you nowhere. You need current measurements in circuit with the transformer in question, to account for side to side transformer variations. I'm sure you could get tweaky and mod the circuit to include a balancing adjustment if you felt like hacking one in. The primary load resistors will already do a tiny bit of side to side load compensation.

I doubt I am of any more help on this; maybe none at all in the first place.

 

[[silent:arts]]

[quote author="emrr"]Placement of 5K meter trim; in series to meter?[/quote]
depends on your meter I think.
for my standard VU I used it in parallel and had no problems to zero it, tracking was fine.

[quote author="emrr"]Adjustment of trimmers on boards; assume RV1 and RV2 adjust to +/-17 VDC, but what about RV3 and RV6?[/quote]
RV1 to your needs (it is not used in the PM directly)
RV2 to -17V, right.
RV3 and RV6 are questions to analag. In my proto I just soldered them in, didn't touch them and it worked fine.

[quote author="mitsos"]I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!![/quote]
just use any 1N4007 - I even don't know the differences.

[quote author="mitsos"]To be honest, I'm not 100% sure they are the correct ones, because their site lists them at 5-something each, and Mouser sells them for $12. Anyway, this is TAW's number: MKP4 10/250/10 LS37.5 RoHS
Volker, can you confirm this is the same?[/quote]
:?: this is not a supplier I ever used, how could I :?:
it is not uncommon to have these price difference, and the ordering number looks fine. but who knows.

 

[mitsos]

[quote author="[silent:arts]"]

[quote author="mitsos"]I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!![/quote]
just use any 1N4007 - I even don't know the differences.[/quote]
Neither do I, so another one it is.

[quote author="[silent:arts]"]
[quote author="mitsos"]To be honest, I'm not 100% sure they are the correct ones, because their site lists them at 5-something each, and Mouser sells them for $12. Anyway, this is TAW's number: MKP4 10/250/10 LS37.5 RoHS
Volker, can you confirm this is the same?[/quote]
:?: this is not a supplier I ever used, how could I :?:
it is not uncommon to have these price difference, and the ordering number looks fine. but who knows.[/quote]
I checked Wima's site after I posted this.. There is only 1 MKP4 10uF,250V, 10%, with 37.5mm leads. So I guess they are the same.

 

[kazper]

[quote author="mitsos"]I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!![/quote]
just use any 1N4007 - I even don't know the differences.[/quote]
Neither do I, so another one it is.

583 is diodes inc 1n4007 diode, and 512 is Fairchild diode.... same thing just different pimp not a big deal.

Just space any of them a little bit off PCB so if there ever is a problem it don't toast the PCB, any high voltage/wattage pieces its best practice.

If you don't understand look at how Drip shows on his LA2A Opto manual(s) in mounting Resistors and diodes and do that!.

 

[Osse]

Hello.

I wonder what the point is with both Input knob and treshold knob is, isn't this the same thing?

And I also wonder why there is no output or make up in this, are you supposed to amplify externally or track back with low signal level?

Confused... :shock:

Thanks!

 

[khstudio]

[quote author="Osse"]Hello.

And I also wonder why there is no output or make up in this?

Confused... :shock:

Thanks![/quote]

Output gain control would be nice & would offer the ability to "drive" the front end more & create some different flavors. :idea:

Didn't the Original units have output gain control?

Can (& How could) this be implemented :?:

 

[emrr]

Input / output; same thing. You could use an external output atten on the audio amp if you wanted. Several pages back it was mentioned the audio amp has 18 db of gain. I suppose you have a problem if doing more than 18 dB of GR.

Look at the block diagram on page 1. Audio amp output drives the side chain amp input. Threshold is the input level to the side chain amp. You could cut into it as a side chain input point if you wanted to hack some more. I can see it now, 'Jim-Bob's PM660 Side-Chain adapter boards"!

But then we move away from the project as envisioned.

Look at the original; this is essentially the same layout and flow.

 

[khstudio]

It's no big deal, I was just curious about an output control... but not hearing the PM670 yet, I guess it's a premature question & probably a non issue.