thermal relay to activate tube standby

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mkruger

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
149
Location
Southampton, New York
I am wondering if anyone here has tried a thermal sensor to switch a relay to take a preamp from standby to operational.

I would like to do this and have it indicated by an LED. It would keep the user from harming the tubes before they warm up.

If anyone has tried this, please post what sensors you have used, and the normal operating temprature of 12AU7 tubes.

-mike
 
Why do you think the tubes are harmed?

What about all the old equipment with no delay circuits that still works with the original tubes?

I don't think you need any delay circuit for 12AU7s, unless they have to work for 51 years instead of 50 :wink:

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen
 
[quote author="mkruger"]so is there a reason why some companies do this?[/quote]
Yes. The users think it's bad for the tubes to make a power supply without a turn-on delay, so the delay is added - even if it's not needed...

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen
 
It makes sense to do it with output tubes, since the cold-cathode current flow is going to be large since it's limited only by the low resistance of the output transformer winding. But preamp tubes are generally used with fairly large plate or cathode resistors, and these limit the maximum current quite nicely. For that reason, such B+ delay circuits are almost always seen in power amps, not preamps.
 
You could kluge together a simple circuit for kicks.
Just a thermistor/comparator that drives the relay. Maybe an output transistor in btween the chip and relay.

I am assuming a fairly constant enclosure tempeture which may not be the casy. Heck, just attach the thermistor right to the tube.

I got a circuit at home for this out of the old Radio Shack opamps for dummies series.
Ooops, I am gonna get sued!

OT Sidetrack: Oliver mentioned a ramped phantom to save the input tube from gettting spiked, so not only the input iron needs protection but the tube also with a high ratio (1:30) input x-former.
 
This is the "standby" switch ala fender guitar amps-right?. I ALWAYS heard that you want the tubes to warm up before playing, and that it was bad for them not to. I asked my boss about this (also a guitar player) and he said that it is unneeded- at my prying he said it's "so the guitar player can go get a beer and come back without having to wait for his amp to warm back up.

:roll:

Joel
 
Cathode stripping. Probably more worrisome on the expensive 6L6's with the 460 volt B+ rather than the cheap lower voltage preamp tubes.

Crap. I used to buy RCA black plate 6L6's for $3.50 a piece after my 40 percent TV shop employee discount.
Should have stocked up. :cry:

" But when the heater is still cold and the electrons haven't left the cathode, the high plate voltages can force pieces of the cathode to be ripped off and to fly up into the plate. Two approaches are usually taken to prevent this damage. The first is to let the heaters receive their voltage before the rail voltages develops. This can be accomplished by using indirectly heated tube rectifiers in the power supply, which slow the turn on, or by using a relay and a timing circuit to stall the B+ voltages. The second approach is to protect the cathode by presenting a large negative voltage to the grid so that the field that the electrostatic develops around the grid wires will shield the cathode from the high voltage present on the plate..."

http://hsga.org/learning/win2000_techtips_standby.html

or use a standby sw.
 
[quote author="Mbira"]I ALWAYS heard that you want the tubes to warm up before playing, and that it was bad for them not to.[/quote]
Yes, but the problem only exists on large transmitting tubes etc. On the "small" tubes "we" use there's no real problem.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen
 
You are not going to harm a 12AU7 preamp by hot-switching it.

You will kill a 50,000 Watt radio transmiter if you don't bring the filament up to temp before you apply HV.

The difference is: up past 300V, we can use rich oxide cathodes that have way more emission than we will ever need. They soft-limit emission, so they are very hard to harm when half-hot. And they have deep reserves of Thorium which will come to the surface as fast as it is ripped off.

Now up over 1,000V, electrons that hit the plate knock out secondary electrons and even positive ions that can hit the cathode pretty hard. So we have to use different cathode materials to withstand bombardment. But these thin tough coats can be stripped to the bone in seconds.

"Home radios", including most tube audio applications, just do not have to worry about pre-warming tubes.

Thermal delay relays are as old as tubes. They are essential on Mercury rectifiers, which can behave very badly if not heated before HV comes on. A thermal relay often looks just like a tube, on octal or 9-pin base, but inside is a heater and a bi-metal contact. Usually you just give a fixed delay, it isn't real practical to measure cathode temp and if a tube is happy, its warm-up time is pretty consistent (especially since series-string TVs appeared).

Of all the audio I've worked on (ignoring radio transmitter gear), only one had a delay relay. The biggest Dynaco tube amp has one. I can picture two reasons: a concertina driver can cause a full-power THUMP at start-up, and with this 120+W amp in a world of 40W reflex speakers, maybe it was a problem. Also the 8417 output tube is very high-strung, Dyna ran them at quite high G2 voltage, and maybe they gave trouble and maybe Hafler thought a delay would be better (actually, I think the 8417 is just TOO high-strung). But I've run other quad-8417 amps without no silly delay-relay without problem.

Fender amps are a special case. Fender raised B+ far above the ratings. In gig work, power/pound is more important than thousand-hour life; also Fender did consult with tube makers to push the limits without begging for problems. And many times, the amp buzzes too much to leave it on through breaks, yet you might get called back from break and forced to play instantly. The Standby switch kills the buzz and lengthens the life of these abused tubes while allowing instant pick-up.

If you still want a pre-heat: just give 10-15 seconds delay. That's twice as long as any common tube needs.

If you gotta be clever: put a 10mA relay in series with one section of an extra 12AU7 wired to an instant-on voltage source. You will have to tinker to get things to work right.
 

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