Type of Solder - Can It Make a Difference to the Sound?

[user 37518]

Class D is indeed pretty amazing in what it can do in a small package with allmost no heat dissapation, but somehow the sound of those amps never convinced me to buy one.
There's some really nice ones out there, but those are expensive.
But I guess much has happened since I last tested one.

For my studio setup I build my own 2x 10W class A mosfet amp with balanced inputs, and for my hifi a 2x50W PP UL tubeamp.

I have this rule that only one can be on

Yes, the sound is not as good as the others, but, newer amps have lowered distortion considerably. Class D is specially useful for portable or small devices and high-power amps like in concerts and venues, in which ultra low distortion is not required.

For home use there is not much need for high power so a Class A might do the job just fine.

 

[user 37518]

Solder most definitely makes a difference and impacts the sound. Ever use a mic pre or other unit that has parts on it but is not soldered? It doesn't work very well.
Jokes aside When ever I hear people talk that kind of thing, I just say o.k. and walk away. there is no point to getting into an argument. I had an engineer tell me that when you copy digital files from one machine to another, you get generation loss. Mind you this is just a straight copy of .wav file on machine A going over to Machine B. no change in sample rate, no change bit depth, no conversion to a different format. just a straight copy of a file from one to the other. He went on to explain that a "insert famous engineer" here and himself had done a test where they copied the same file 10 times and when they were done, you couldn't hear the reverb any more because there was generation loss. Generation loss is real in analog and with tape, if it were real in digital then computers wouldn't work as they should. But anyway no matter, the same thing was done, I just said o.k. and walked off. I am not about to get into arguments with people who think they know they are right but do not know enough about a subject to know they are incorrect. There is no point to it.

Jim Williams claims on GS that silver solder makes A TON of difference. Then again, Jim Williams always claims such things about everything he does or likes.

Odd, I never understood why Jim Williams is not active on this forum? maybe he is but he is just lurking around.....

 

[pucho812]

Jim Williams claims on GS that silver solder makes A TON of difference. Then again, Jim Williams always claims such things about everything he does or likes.

Odd, I never understood why Jim Williams is not active on this forum? maybe he is but he is just lurking around.....

I bet it's because we would bust him. My buddy who is an old salt in audio here in L.A. will tell you that jim williams got his start doing guitar amps. The best thing he did was stop doing guitar amps. Unfortunately he moved onto pro audio.

 

[user 37518]

I bet it's because we would bust him. My buddy who is an old salt in audio here in L.A. will tell you that jim williams got his start doing guitar amps. The best thing he did was stop doing guitar amps. Unfortunately he moved onto pro audio.

Yes, it is easier to BS some poor bastard in GS rather than here....

I've heard that some of his 'upgrades' misteriously burn out in some equipment.

He likes to use the fastest opamps, rumor has it that he is currently experimenting with fiber optic amplifiers for audio, I am joking of course, well, maybe not.

 

[pucho812]

Yes, it is easier to BS some poor bastard in GS rather than here....

I've heard that some of his 'upgrades' misteriously burn out in some equipment.

He likes to use the fastest opamps, rumor has it that he is currently experimenting with fiber optic amplifiers for audio, I am joking of course, well, maybe not.

well he did use those video IC. I can tell you, every upgrade he has done with people I work with, I have easily had to remove because they were not happen with the end results which I would describe as clinical.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Shure all amps sound the same and all amps can drive all speakers...

On paper...

Maybe put your calculator away for a bit and use your ears for a while.

How many amps have you build ?

How many amps have you designed? (You probably mean sure not Shure, an equipment brand).

Listening tests are only useful to confirm you didn't miss any bench measurements. In my experience I can measure things that I can not hear, and I never heard something that I could not measure.

I have performed some loosely controlled blind listening tests and the results were not unexpected (listeners preferred louder, etc)..

JR

PS: These days I just buy a Hypex class D amp,,, Bruno Putzey is the man for amps.

 

[user 37518]

well he did use those video IC. I can tell you, every upgrade he has done with people I work with, I have easily had to remove because they were not happen with the end results which I would describe as clinical.

Yes, he is obsessed with Slew Rate

 

[JohnRoberts]

Jim Williams has more happy customers than unhappy ones, and his blarney is part of the "upgrade".

There is nothing inherently wrong with using better components than needed other than the excessive unnecessary expense, while some people correlate higher cost with higher quality so it is a marketing win-win.

This forum is probably not a target rich environment for him.

JR

 

[PermO]

How many amps have you designed? (You probably mean sure not Shure, an equipment brand).

Sure,... I'm not a circuit designer, I don't aspire to be one as there is so much good stuff out there that you can build, though recently I have designed (by trial and error and listening) a low voltage tube saturation amp that works wonders on drumbus, bass and synths. I will share the design on this forum, I need to check some resistor values and draw the final version of the schematic.

Listening tests are only useful to confirm you didn't miss any bench measurements. In my experience I can measure things that I can not hear, and I never heard something that I could not measure.

I would never doubt your experiences... and you are obviously a very knowledgeable guy as it comes to circuit design.

My story is different though...
When a playback system is really good, I loose my eyesight during listening... kinda freaked me out the first time, but it comes back when the music stops.
And I don't have this with all playback systems, and this phenomenon triggered my interest in building amps and speakers.
The things I have found, that work for me might be complete BS to you, and I understand and respect your opinion about these things... I'm probably cut from a different tree.

I have performed some loosely controlled blind listening tests and the results were not unexpected (listeners preferred louder, etc)..

JR

PS: These days I just buy a Hypex class D amp,,, Bruno Putzey is the man for amps.

I agree the Bruno Putzey amps are the best class D amps out there.

 

[boji]

Ended up settling on eutectic. I find it wicks a little better with my current iron, which converts to less time spent having to revisit joints.

At any rate, common sense would suggest If ac travels differently through different types of solder, then there ought to be at least a tiny difference in sound if you stack that solder up across ten thousand points.

 

[Gold]

Unlike standard 60/40 solder, eutectic solder (comes in different alloys) typically has a lower melting temperature. The BIG advantage is eutectic "clicks" from molten to solid in a very narrow temp range without a "pasty" temp range.

Been happily using eutectic 63/37 for decades.

Add "silver bearing" to eutectic and you really have something that sounds good. Precious metals always help. Silver bearing solder is actually the right stuff to use on silver plated switch contacts and silver plated wire. I use it for pretty much everything though. Never heard a difference between it and anything else. It's really shiny though. That must sound better.

 

[pucho812]

Jim Williams has more happy customers than unhappy ones, and his blarney is part of the "upgrade".

There is nothing inherently wrong with using better components than needed other than the excessive unnecessary expense, while some people correlate higher cost with higher quality so it is a marketing win-win.

This forum is probably not a target rich environment for him.

JR

I am sure he does, I just never met any. I have heard the end results and was not my liking. But as they say it takes all kinds.

 

[Whoops]

I had some fun in google...



off course there's audiophile solder:

https://www.mcru.co.uk/product-category/diy-componants/audiophile-grade-solder/
This solder "HIFI TUNING SUPREME3 9.5% SILVER SOLDER" is from the same company that makes the audiophile fuses, the well known Worldwide best sounding Fuses

https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/hifi-tuning-supreme3-9-5-silver-solder/

 

[JohnRoberts]

At any rate, common sense would suggest If ac travels differently through different types of solder, then there ought to be at least a tiny difference in sound if you stack that solder up across ten thousand points.

Be careful about making "common sense" ASSumptions. Across ten thousand junctions any number of factors can accumulate. The question is does the solder media rise to significance compared to all other factors involved. Solder matters when joints fail or become intermittent. I've had more problems in practice from different fluxes.

This reminds me a little of discussions I would have with Peavey's one "golden ear". He was an engineer working in the transducer (speaker/microphone) group and a respectable audio engineer, who was published in AES for his work with multi-tone IMD. We would wander off into obscure discussions about atomic level behavior in conductors and passive components. The bottom line, when dealing with millions(?) of atoms in a speaker wire, its how they behave en masse, not the individual atoms.

Getting back to your 10,000 solder joints in series, what matters IMO is the total resistance, not some exotic solder metallurgy. For speaker wire in order of importance it's #1 resistance, #2 resistance, and finally #3 resistance.

JR

 

[mjrippe]

It is well known that solder has a higher resistance than, say, copper traces. So if one alloy has a lower resistance than another then there could potentially be a measurable difference. However, I think it would be buried under other possible sources such as clean, tinned leads, lead dress (bent over, wrapped around, etc.), hole size (for through hole), pad size, and the phase of the moon!

 

[JohnRoberts]

It is well known that solder has a higher resistance than, say, copper traces. So if one alloy has a lower resistance than another then there could potentially be a measurable difference. However, I think it would be buried under other possible sources such as clean, tinned leads, lead dress (bent over, wrapped around, etc.), hole size (for through hole), pad size, and the phase of the moon!

I recall working with high current traces inside power amps last century at Peavey, we would routinely leave the solder mask off high current traces so an extra layer of solder would cling to the traces and lower the resistance of those traces.

JR

 

[Matt Nolan]

I had an engineer tell me that when you copy digital files from one machine to another, you get generation loss. Mind you this is just a straight copy of .wav file on machine A going over to Machine B. no change in sample rate, no change bit depth, no conversion to a different format. just a straight copy of a file from one to the other. He went on to explain that a "insert famous engineer" here and himself had done a test where they copied the same file 10 times and when they were done, you couldn't hear the reverb any more because there was generation loss. Generation loss is real in analog and with tape, if it were real in digital then computers wouldn't work as they should. But anyway no matter, the same thing was done, I just said o.k. and walked off.

There's a fairly high profile mastering engineer who has a favourite brand of hard drive. Not for reliability reasons. For sound reasons. Cognitive bias affects us all...

 

[rock soderstrom]

There's a fairly high profile mastering engineer who has a favourite brand of hard drive. Not for reliability reasons. For sound reasons. Cognitive bias affects us all...

Ha ha, new business model! Audiophile tube driven hard drives

 

[PermO]

Vacuum tube word clock.. could that be done ?

Even if it was a jitter monster it would defenitely sell.

 

[user 37518]

Vacuum tube word clock.. could that be done ?

Even if it was a jitter monster it would defenitely sell.

Ohhh man, don't give people ideas!