UM57/ CMV 563 sound so boring, whats up?

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[quote author="hitchhiker"]
If you like clear, natural
but still punchy enough mids to have authority then you will be happy.
[/quote]
Yes, with presence enough to make children choirs ringing.

xvlk
 
Hi Soundguy and everyone, Ive been saving all this up for a while, its a bit of a rant so here goes...

I bought a CMV563 with M7, M8 and M9 capsules last year from ebay and since then Joe and I have been trying several interesting mods with it.

When it first arrived it was non functional, but after replacing the electro caps in the mic as well as the tube (bought 2 EC92s and picked the quietest one, about 4db difference) it was up and going and sounding good.

Joe noticed that my mic had a more primative circuit to the 563 circuit thats floating around on the web. Hes drawn it out and hopefully will post it soon. It would be good to know which circuit each poster's CMV has, and to see if this correlates with the differing opinions of the mic's usefulness. Also, my PSU has no preamp in it. Just the usual bits and the reg tube.

Like I said, once my CMV was back to spec I thought it sounded good, with the M7. Ive found the M8 and M9 capsules to be unuseable because of their bizzare freq curve, which seems to be inherant in their design. They sound pretty much like the curves on the original data sheet, the M8 rolling off around 8k and the M9 with a massive rise around 8k and then a steep roll above 15k.

The M7 sounded fine though, fairly bright but with a delicate, sweet top end and a very pronounced proximity effect. It was amazing on accoustic guitars and great on fem vocals, and I also liked it as a drum overhead or room mic. It stands up to processing more than most of my other mics, you can eq, compress and distort it and it still tends to sit nicely in a mix.

Despite this, Joe and I were keen to see how it could be improved, or at least given more features.

The first mod we tried was removing the AC negative feedback from the tube. Joe devised an ingenius way to switch this in and out remotely. Ill let him give the details of this if he wants.
This mod increases the gain a few db, boosts the top end a little and seems to do something funny to the low mids, making them a little more thick and juicey. You could say it makes the mic sound a little more 'modern'. Its not a massive change but extremely useful, like having a similar mic to try if its not quite working, with the flick of a switch. Were using it on male vocals as I type this, with the mod in, and the singer and producer love the sound.

The other mod is to the M7 capsule. Upon opening it up we found that the back element was indeed fitted, just not connected to anything. Its solder tab is spaced so a magnetic reed switch fits perfectly between it and the tab for the front element. So we fitted the reed switch (again, Joe's idea) and now the capsule can be switched to omni by moving a magnet in front of the relay.

The only problem was holding the magnet there, as the surrounding metal is not magnetic. This was solved by soldering a small strip of steel onto one side of the switch so that it sat over the top and gave the magnet something to cling to. We also covered it in heatshrink so it cant short to the case.

The little rare earth magnet, about 8mm round, now sticks to the grill of the capsule when you want it in omni and is removed for cardioid. Omni sounds fantastic, very similar to cardioid but with no prox effect. We just used it very succesfully on a female singer who likes to get up close to the mic. Ive also tried it right up on the sound hole of an acc guitar, where I would usually never put a mic, and it sounds beautifully balanced and delicate.

Were looking at what can be done to the M8 and M9 capsules but its not looking promising. We might end up just using the cases and putting new capsules inside to get the right patterns.

Hopefully Ill post some photos and some sound examples up soon. Soundguy, Id love to hear what your CMVs sound like to compare it with mine.

Cheers,

Matt
 
hi matt-

thats awesome news! I was just talking to gus this week about my mics, they still sound average and unexciting, I havent had the time to work on them at all. Gus and I were planning on toying around next week, we should all put our heads together and see what we come up with.

dave
 
[quote author="soundguy"]I didnt even realize there was a preamp in the power supply...

[/quote]

Yeah, what preamp?

I've a pair of 563s with a new 2 ch supply (Bradley) that does not have an amp in it.

They are kinda flat and boring, like a U89, but I like that on some things. On the other hand, the "omni" caps for those are pretty bright.
Th M582 also has the same circuit/tube but are much brighter with their capsules. I've not tried one with an M7 head though.
 
I should also add, I have similar reaction to the m8 and m9. The m8 is particularly useless, it sounds like a broken ribbon mic. I cant imagine what anyone was thining when they worked out the lowpass on that capsule.

dave
 
[quote author="Bryson"][quote author="soundguy"]I didnt even realize there was a preamp in the power supply...

[/quote]

Yeah, what preamp?

I've a pair of 563s with a new 2 ch supply (Bradley) that does not have an amp in it.

They are kinda flat and boring, like a U89, but I like that on some things. On the other hand, the "omni" caps for those are pretty bright.
Th M582 also has the same circuit/tube but are much brighter with their capsules. I've not tried one with an M7 head though.[/quote]


Some of the later 563s had a transistor preamp in the PSU. Mine doesnt though, and from all reports its worth taking out if yours does.

What capsules do you have for you 563s? Which omni are you refering to, the M9 or the M55k?


Matt
 
the m9, I dont like it at all. I almost wish I had a 55k. I supppose the m9 might be good on some vocals, but using it as a room mic which would be awesome, just sounds terrible. Seems to bring out every bad thing about a cymbal that is possible. I have no idea what kind of condition my capsules are in but I have two m8's for instance, and both sound equally terrible and got them from totally different sources.

I cant wait to fix these mics up, it will be nice to have something exciting coming out of them, thats for sure.

I dont know that Ive done the research to make a comment like this, but Im really starting to think that this is a mic you buy to fix into something good, not something that is gonna be awesome out of the box. Too many friends of mine now have the same story to tell in regards to these things.

dave
 
Dave, Id love to see some pics of the inside of your mic. You say it has a very small xformer, whereas my CMV's is quite large - it looks a lot like the U47 xformer.

The way you describe the M9 it sounds just like mine. Lots of top end but really harsh and kinda dull at the same time - never thought that was possible! If youve never opened it up youll see from the pics Im about to post that its actually not an omni capsule, just a small cardioid so its more omni than card, but not quite either.

I hear the M55k is really nice, but I have a feeling the M7 as omni would beat it. Maybe Ill buy one and see.

Does your 563 have an EC92 or an EF86?

This is going to be an interesting problem to crack!

:)

matt
 
Newsflash! I cant believe I didnt see this before, but my CMV563 actually isnt a 563, its a 551! This explains the different circuit. Perhaps there are other differences too.

Anyway, here are pics of the mic, inside and out, the M7, M8 and M9 capsules and the omni mod done to the M7.

http://www.jlmaudio.com/CMV551.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/CMV551EC92.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/CMV551internalmod.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/CMV551studio.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/CMV551magnet.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/M7mod.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/M7internal.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/M8internal.jpg
http://www.jlmaudio.com/M9internal.jpg

Well put the circuit for the 551 and some sound examples of the mods soon.


Matt
 
Matt

I can't open the links even with a cut and paste

I have a few ideas about what to do with Dave's microphones. I have a few transformers to try. A few differernt tubes and even maybe a solid state circuit to drop in the microphone if built it would plug in the tube socket.

Somewere at Klaus's forum there are pictures of a number of different transformers used in the older german microphones. I will look for the link.

I believe I read the feedback network was because of the transformer not being the greatest. The Lundall site has a schematic PDF about feedback using the transformer.

I have a custom AMI transformer and a newer cinemag that might work very well with this circuit.
 
I guess it´s more the capsules which are bad. Soundguy, don´t you have an opportunity to use your micbody with a different capsule, just to find out if the circuit or the capsule is bad?
I have two of them and I really love them. Nice bright top, wonderful for drum overhead (M7 and M55k). I can´t imagine that you wouldn´t like this sound if you could hear it.
Jens
 
I too find my m8's of no use.
I just recently bought from Olly the upgradetransformer and installed into one of my cmv563. It cost me $175 but in the end I'm very happy I went for it. The mids hardened up and the highs are a up a tad. My smoothest M7 is now more aggresive yet still big and warm. I read some praise for this upgrade on another forum and this person said it improved his um57 by 50%. I would agree.

Lance
 
I cant open the links either, I thought it was just my browser not updating or something but clearly its not just me. Has anyone been able to see them?
Well get that fixed asap.

Personally, I think changing the xformer would be a last option as I havent seen or heard any evidence that the one in my mic is bad. I think theres several other options to look at before that, however if thats what floats yer boat, go for it!


Matt
 
[quote author="mattmoogus"][quote author="Bryson"]

What capsules do you have for you 563s? Which omni are you refering to, the M9 or the M55k?

[/quote]

The M55K and M7. The M55 is the bright omni. I use it on piano sometimes.
I have an omni cap (M58?) for the m582 that I like on Ac Gtr. The cardioid for that is almost too bright sometimes.
 
i love this thread

reading through it .. as it is decribed ... it reminds me of my cm7156 ...

i have yet to find a 7156 schemo ... but i did hand draw one.

and i don't have the 563 schemo (yet) but i wonder how they would campare?

7156 also uses the ec92 ... and it sounds like similar components too..

and as i was working on mine someone compared it to this 563 ...

since it doesn't look like the neumann construction of the big boys i thought it might be as dull as dave describes it.

but reading through this thread i see there may be some hope after all ..:grin:

and i must say !wow! xvlk ... i thought your work was mainly with ribbon mics ... but ..
now i know just how extensive your knowledge can be ...
thanks for your posts .... :grin: ... great info ... you da mannn :grin:

anyway i'll try to get that drawing of my 7156 posted for comparison ..
unless someone has it already commited to memory .. lol .. maybe xvlk ... :grin:

later
ts
 
Ian

I think you aswered the question I had about the 551 with the use of the 60K. It did not make sense because of where the tube bias would be at 120V with that setup. 200V makes more sense. Clever the 60K is used to bias the capsule.

FWIW a ec92 should be close to 1/2 of a 12at7 like you find in the china microphones
 
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