Varitone mythology - what do you think?

[Emperor-TK]

I recently picked up a '61 Gibson ES-345 with a stereo varitone circuit and was wondering if it is worth bypassing it.  If you read the guitar fora, the Varitione allegedly sucks the life out of the guitar even in bypass mode.  Looking at the schematic, I find that hard to believe. 

Schematic
http://www.flatearthguitars.com/files/Gibson_Varitones.jpg

I would think that the five anti-pop 10-meg resistors in parallel hanging on the LC filter network would  look like a brick wall to the circuit in position 1 (bypass).  However, there are two reasons that I question this.

1.  There are sound files posted online demonstrating before and after varitone removal.  The difference is not subtle.  I have a hard time believing that all things were equal in the recordings however.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=4658561

2.  When I was shopping for this guitar, I played two guitars locally, a '59 and another '61 ES-345 (not mine).  The '61 apparently had the inductor disconnected, because positions 2-6 sounded the same as 1 but with a volume cut (by making a voltage divider with the 100K series resistor and the 500K volume pot).  The '59 had the stock Varitione.  The '61 absolutely SMOKED the '59, with much more clarity and fullness (similar to the sound files posted above).  I wrote it off to the '61 having better wood, but I have to ask myself if the myth could be true.

Yes, I know I could de-solder the inductor wire really quickly and answer my own question, but this guitar has a 100% unsoldered harness and the next yutz who buys it from this yutz is probably going to care about that.  However, if there could be any truth to the myth, I'm going to go for it.  Any opinions?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Iwould say the strings have been changed in between, which would account for the differences with neck p-u only and bridge p-u only. For the difference on the "both" position, I would say a phase inversion problem has been fixed in between in addition to the string change).

 

[rodabod]

I'd maybe measure those 10M's just in case, but yeah, I agree - they shouldn't load it noticeably in theory.

 

[alexc]

I took the Varitone out of my Gibson. It sounded terrible.
Like a hi-cut filter. And a  mid-cut filter.

After removal, the guitar finally had some voice.

Get rid of that thing! (providing you can reverse the change and preserve it's vintage value)

 

[Emperor-TK]

Rod, as I understand it, the 10M are sealed in an epoxy package unfortunately and can't be accessed without the corresponding capacitor in series.

I spoke to Gus last night and he suggested that before desoldering wires, to try a high impedance buffer between the guitar and the amp and see what happens.  I plugged into my K&K piezo preamp (from my upright) and there was a very noticeable difference.  It might not have been as dramatic as the sound files posted, but it wasn't subtle.  The difference was similar to what alexc described.  I think there might be something to this.

I'm desoldering the inductors tonight.  I'll report back on what I find.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Emperor-TK]

I had a chance to do some experiments last night.  I put a true bypass on the Varitone by desoldering the ground wire coming from the inductors and installing a switch.  With the switch open, as expected the Varitone did not work, other than having a volume drop resulting from the series resistor being switched in at positions 2-6.  No tone changes resulted at positions 2-6.  The result:

There was NO difference between position 1 bypass and true bypass.  None, nada, nill.  Not even a subtle ineffable difference.  I directly compared the two bypass options (position 1 and true bypass) both plugged into a ~1M input impedance on my amp and into the ~1gig input impedance on my piezo buffer/preamp.  There was still a huge sound difference between the amp and the buffer though.  As a reference, I did the same comparison with my ES-335.  The piezo buffer was also equally brighter with the 335, telling me that it is either a loading issue that applies equally to both the 335 and 345 wiring, or my buffer/pre has an eq built in.  To be fair, I didn't try a lower impedance input, like a line input to a mic pre.  However, since I never plan on plugging into a 10K line input, I don't care about that scenario.

I agree with the general consensus in the guitar community that varitone positions 2-6 are tone suckers, but not the bypassed position 1.  Based on my own experience, I no longer believe the sound files I referenced can be the result of a controlled experiment.  As far as I am concerned:

Myth Busted!

I can post my sound files tonight if anyone is interested.

 

[pucho812]

so in other words. If you ever run into a gibson guitar with a varitone circuit, It's best to remove that circuit as when in use, it makes the guitar sound bad. nice

 

[Johan]

...I agree with the general consensus in the guitar community that varitone positions 2-6 are tone suckers...

...but..but..but..isn't that the whole idea with the varitone...so you can adjust your tone and make it thinner or darker..?...
if it was meant to do nothing, there wouldn't be any point in puting it in there...

..but then, the guitar community is a strange crowd sometimes. they allways seem to think their tone will be improved by removing something..doesnt matter what, as long as SOMETHING is removed...
j

 

[Emperor-TK]

I like the varitone in principle, just not in execution.  The cuts are extreme, in the range of 8-11dB and I don't really agree with the frequency centers they chose.  Furthermore, I'm more interested in mid boost than mid cut.  If this guitar weren't vintage, I'd probably rewire it to give me more subtle bass notches and treble shelves.  As it is, to me, the varitone is useful only for special effects.  I consider the two out of phase pickups to be more generally useful than the varitone.

 

[mikeyB]

Furthermore, I'm more interested in mid boost than mid cut.

Can the filter elements (or more to the point - the wiring) be "flipped" in the circuit to give boost rather than cut? - I not totally sure - I'll look at this - but ask one of the many gurus for advice - probably one reading this thread right now!

 

[Gus]

This makes sense.  The inductor is in series with 2Meg and the caps(5, 10megs and series caps in||) and across the pickup as the frequency goes up the inductor is more and more out of circuit not loading it.