We've been here before

[DaveP]

President Obama just about summed it up,"One day America will have to reckon with the fact that this doesn't happen in other advanced countries".

There is no point in going over this any more, as we've been there before, but it got me thinking about why that is true and what happened in British history to make it true.

The British introduced the first Police force in 1829 and set national standards in 1856, I think that all personal weapons became illegal around then.  This is interesting because the US had marshalls and deputies at around the same time.  I think that because the UK is practically urban and that there was much more wilderness in the US where you might need a gun (Indians, outlaws,bears etc), the tradition of gun carrying took root.

The other point I find interesting is the acceptance of curtailing freedom in some areas whilst rejecting it in others.  It is generally accepted that speed limits save lives in urban areas and they are mostly adhered to.  Also the curtailment of freedom is accepted in areas like the freedom to practice as a doctor or a pilot, you must be qualified to practice.  America also has stricter alcohol laws  than Europe which is a denial of freedom.  As an outside observer, I find it hard to understand why there is not a similar curtailment of freedom (for safety s sake) in the ease of obtaining firearms.  There must be a cause and effect in place in the US that does not exist elsewhere.  Enlightenment required.

best
DaveP

 

[emrr]

Amazing his statement is being spun as 'going on the attack about gun control, and shameful to bring it up at a time like this'. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

President Obama just about summed it up,"One day America will have to reckon with the fact that this doesn't happen in other advanced countries".

I'm glad to hear somebody watches and likes President Obama's speeches. I literally turned off my TV set after hearing him turn that tragic church shooting into another episode of his racial screed. Obama still appears to be campaigning, maybe he can run for president of the world next. He will get a lot of votes in Europe.

There is no point in going over this any more, as we've been there before, but it got me thinking about why that is true and what happened in British history to make it true.

There is no point in going over this again, but here goes....

The British introduced the first Police force in 1829 and set national standards in 1856, I think that all personal weapons became illegal around then.  This is interesting because the US had marshalls and deputies at around the same time.  I think that because the UK is practically urban and that there was much more wilderness in the US where you might need a gun (Indians, outlaws,bears etc), the tradition of gun carrying took root.

true... You forget that a gun was also used for hunting to provide food for the family centuries ago. Depriving a man of his gun was a major hardship back then.

The other point I find interesting is the acceptance of curtailing freedom in some areas whilst rejecting it in others.  It is generally accepted that speed limits save lives in urban areas and they are mostly adhered to. 

adherence to speed limits is mainly a function of enforcement. Modern technology is making it possible for perfect enforcement by the vehicle itself. Some car insurance companies offer discounts for a big brother electronic monitor of their driving.  I changed my auto insurance company years ago when I refused to stop using my radar detector. I could have just lied to them about it, but I don't play that way.

Also the curtailment of freedom is accepted in areas like the freedom to practice as a doctor or a pilot, you must be qualified to practice. 

I suspect fear of lawsuits is a stronger motivation. Some classes of aircraft have pretty lax requirements, while it looks like we have two problems with modern aircraft. #1 they are so easy to fly that pilots forget how to actually fly airplanes, and #2 they can still crash on purpose when the pilot is mentally unstable.  Now drones on the other hand seem over regulated perhaps, while that could be messy if allowed to turn into a free for all. 

America also has stricter alcohol laws  than Europe which is a denial of freedom.  As an outside observer, I find it hard to understand why there is not a similar curtailment of freedom (for safety s sake) in the ease of obtaining firearms.  There must be a cause and effect in place in the US that does not exist elsewhere.  Enlightenment required.

best
DaveP

Americans like their guns...  As i have observed before I think the second amendment addresses more than just personal protection which IMO is a natural right not an enumerated right by the constitution. The "right to bear arms" is more about a balance of power between local regions and the federal government. Striking down the second amendment would require addressing that much larger can of worms  (Federal vs local power).

Regarding gun violence it is human nature to desire simple answers for complex issues.  At the moment we are seeing an increase of gun violence in some urban areas for two different reasons. In NYC the new liberal mayor rolled back the "stop and frisk" policy of his predecessor, that effectively got guns off the street before. Some minority citizens felt offended because they were inconvenienced.  I wonder if they feel better now as guns are easier to carry, and gun violence is increasing again.

A second factor is the current media climate that paints all white police officers as racist. When the few isolated incidents occur, these become national news stories with the president and attorney general commenting long before the facts are known. Recall the incident early in Obama's first term, where a black Harvard professor had an incident with a white Cambridge police officer and Obama pontificated from the white house about police misbehavior before learning the facts. Later he had to walk that back with a rose garden beer party, but the damage was already done and the "police are bad" meme survives to this day.

The police now feel afraid to dive into situations where they may be found to look bad. If there is no radio call, stay in the car. This less effective policing in dangerous areas will have a negative impact on public safety.  I am optimistic that body cameras will eventually reveal the kind of BS that these officer have to put up with on a routine basis. Police have always been at risk for their own safety, but it seems like there are more outright police assassinations since this has become politicized.  As I am fond of saying words have consequences, especially when uttered from the bully pulpit. 

There is much much more to this...  Privacy policies protecting individual mental health status seems potentially dangerous when gun ownership is involved. IMO crazy people shouldn't have guns.

Sorry if "crazy" is not the PC term for describing mentally unbalanced individuals, while that German pilot who planted his aircraft full of passengers into the alps might have done less damage with a pistol.  Maybe all we need to do is outlaw gun ownership in the middle east... I can hear peace breaking out already (not).

JR

 

[pucho812]

I think it's a very complex issue. You can't just go lets remove  guns that will fix the problem. I don't see how that will fix the problem because a person bent on doing the deed will find another way. Studies have shown that in places with very strict gun control, gun violence still happens.  For example look at Norway where in 2011  a gunman went on a rampage that killed over 80 people.  Guns are prohibited in Norway. So what gives?  To once again place blame on an inanimate object just avoids the core root of the problem which in the wake of this recent shooting was hate.  Hate is something  that gets taught it's not something a person is born with.  The other main thing is that his current status with the law made it against the law for him to own a firearm, it also made it against the law to give him a firearm which he was given a pistol for his birthday. The person who gave him said pistol will probably be in trouble with the law as well.
I think you will find that in the majority of these cases there are several common things going on, Hate, mental illness,  and the illegal obtainment of a firearm. In The U.S. there is a great system of checks and balances  for obtaining a firearm, if they were enforced [properly there would not be an issue.

As for Obama I find it sad that he has to use tragedy to stand on his soapbox and speak.  Where is he every day in places like the south side of Chicago where over july 4th weekend last year more people were killed in gun violence then in an entire year.  I don't see him or anyone else saying how tragic that is. 

 

[DaveP]

Because I don't live in the US, I don't understand why you and others are upset by what Obama said, it seemed obvious to me.  A President has the job of leading the nation and it must be depressing for him to have to go over the same old ground whilst being powerless to do anything about it.

I think because he travels the world and gets asked these questions by foreign leaders it must seem more normal to respond in the way he did.  It does not seem to be remotely political to me just plain common sense, a simple question of what's so different about America that these things only happen here.

I agree with what you said about the police, its only when you are in danger that you realise how much you need them I guess.  A few bad apples should not be used to judge the majority.  The media go for that type of story in a less than responsible way.

Hadn't thought of the hunting angle, the US is portrayed in westerns as mostly desert, but there are lots of forests too of course.

I think its obvious the Americans like their guns.  I think there is no feedback (to use an electronic analogy) in place because mainly these tragic events just happen to other people.  You see it on the TV and its kind of remote I guess, it's sort of unrelated to the gun in your draw?  Is that what its like?  Unlike climate change where you experience stronger winds, more floods and worse droughts, the cause and effect can't be ignored then.

I don't understand what you are talking about when you talk about the balance of power between regions and the federal government, its outside of my experience as there are no parallels in Europe.

I think Pucho's comment that the laws need better enforcement is your best option.  Although how you can control all the guns that are out there already is beyond me, it seems hopeless from where I'm sitting.  The father who gave his son the gun must bear the greatest responsibility, they should throw the book at him.
best
DaveP

 

[pucho812]

I am not upset at what he said so much as when he said it.  It's being upset at how he is selective in his outrage and uses one thing here or there  as platform to stand on his soapbox. His own neighborhood that he once was a representative of in Chicago has daily violence and sad to say  gun violence on a regular.    But do we see him discussing how sad it is, etc. No.

 

[DaveP]

OK, that makes sense, we just don't get that level of detail in our news to appreciate the subtleties you're talking about.

What we hear about are kids shooting their mothers in stores and shooting themselves after going down their mother's handbags.
These events are beyond our comprehension in Europe. and so make the news.  We don't have automatic rights to gun ownership, you would have to be a farmer who needs it to control vermin or be in a shooting club and they have to be locked in a special cupboard at all other times.
best
DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

Because I don't live in the US, I don't understand why you and others are upset by what Obama said, it seemed obvious to me.  A President has the job of leading the nation and it must be depressing for him to have to go over the same old ground whilst being powerless to do anything about it.

I think because he travels the world and gets asked these questions by foreign leaders it must seem more normal to respond in the way he did.  It does not seem to be remotely political to me just plain common sense, a simple question of what's so different about America that these things only happen here.

What passes for common sense in europe is not embraced at least in fly-over America... The urban liberals have long wanted to be more like Europe. (I don't mean to group the UK in with Europe. The UK seems to be about half-way between the US and EU, while I haven't visited either for over a decade so don't know about recent shifts other than what I see in the news and we know how representative news reports are. ) 

I agree with what you said about the police, its only when you are in danger that you realise how much you need them I guess.  A few bad apples should not be used to judge the majority.  The media go for that type of story in a less than responsible way.

+1

Hadn't thought of the hunting angle, the US is portrayed in westerns as mostly desert, but there are lots of forests too of course.

There's lots of everything here, including lots of nothing. When you fly over the US you see large open areas. There is political tension trying to shift more political power to urban areas, while the government is designed to share the power between regions not just by population.

I think its obvious the Americans like their guns.  I think there is no feedback (to use an electronic analogy) in place because mainly these tragic events just happen to other people.  You see it on the TV and its kind of remote I guess, it's sort of unrelated to the gun in your draw?  Is that what its like?  Unlike climate change where you experience stronger winds, more floods and worse droughts, the cause and effect can't be ignored then.

There has been isolated incidents of workplace violence in many places.  I recall at least one 20 miles from where I live within the last two decades. But before the recent media sensationalism these were treated as isolated event (by unstable people), not some defining trend about the american condition.

We don't need new laws, it is already against the law to shoot people in church (or anywhere else). We need to review the mental health privacy laws, and enforce gun laws on city streets where again it is already illegal to shoot people. 

I don't understand what you are talking about when you talk about the balance of power between regions and the federal government, its outside of my experience as there are no parallels in Europe.

When our founders formed our government they were concerned about a central (federal) government that had too much power over local decision making. In fact they learned these lessons from watching the behavior of european governments of a few hundred years ago.  Our government is set up to give the federal government limited authority over national matters  like interstate trade where they are a natural arbiter, and international dealings with the rest of the world. Local governance is best performed locally so that power is reserved for the states and local governments. 

I think Pucho's comment that the laws need better enforcement is your best option.  Although how you can control all the guns that are out there already is beyond me, it seems hopeless from where I'm sitting.  The father who gave his son the gun must bear the greatest responsibility, they should throw the book at him.
best
DaveP

You are still confusing the hardware with the software... indeed without a gun the loon couldn't shoot people, but there are other ways to kill people. History is full of numerous examples of that too.

How does that old saying go, "for every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"  (H L Mencken). 

JR

 

[DaveP]

I do accept the concept that you are talking about, (people pull the triggers).

But no-one seems to be interested in solving this "complex" problem at the moment do they?, maybe there are too many vested interests?

Since 1950 we have unravelled the human genome, that's pretty complex,  intercepted planets with satellites after years of space flight,  wiped out several diseases, that's complex too.  But keeping guns away from people who are unstable or just plain crazy  (crazy is the right word pc or not) seems to be beyond the "greatest nation on earth" as your presidential candidates keep telling us.  I accept that Obama has probably used his speech to make his point, he is a politician, but there must also be a fair amount of embarrassment on his part too, for the reasons I've mentioned above, he looked hopeless in the literal sense of the word.
best
DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

I do accept the concept that you are talking about, (people pull the triggers).

But no-one seems to be interested in solving this "complex" problem at the moment do they?, maybe there are too many vested interests?

Perhaps in your local news.

There is a robust discussion about this almost constantly, just not in the evening news. Most of the oxygen is consumed by the "ban all guns" advocates, and the knee jerk response from gun rights groups.

Obama has signed 20 something executive orders related to gun ownership and  one associates mental health with federal gun permissions, but as usual that is not the real problem.  mental Health professionals have legal liability under privacy laws for sharing negative mental health information about patients.  Now this is just crazy...  I expect this to return to the evening news (maybe even in Europe) as they are just now in the second month of the trial about the whacko who shot up the movie theater in CO. IIRC he had shared some of his darker inclinations with his shrink before the incident. 

Public politics does not manage complex issues well, so gravitates toward the simple and wrong answers every time. This is one of those complex problems that always gets detoured into a gun rights debate. They can't even ask the right questions, so surely won't reach the right answer. 

Since 1950 we have unravelled the human genome, that's pretty complex,  intercepted planets with satellites after years of space flight,  wiped out several diseases, that's complex too.  But keeping guns away from people who are unstable or just plain crazy  (crazy is the right word pc or not) seems to be beyond the "greatest nation on earth" as your presidential candidates keep telling us.

It's not the guns but the ammo... (bad joke)... Again the guns are not the problem, it's the crazy people, allowed to go off their meds. Maybe we need better meds that they would like to take? 

I accept that Obama has probably used his speech to make his point, he is a politician, but there must also be a fair amount of embarrassment on his part too, for the reasons I've mentioned above, he looked hopeless in the literal sense of the word.
best
DaveP

Gun control is on the standard democratic wish list. Yes he is goal oriented but it is untoward to conflate a real tragedy with such mundane political goals.  It was already illegal for that guy to have a gun. But as the saying goes never let a crisis go to waste.

Ironically perhaps there was another shooting incident in a church in CO several years back where a gun man was stopped by an armed member of the church (a woman with a gun... look out). It was a bad day for that shooter.  (google Jeanne Assan, Colorado Springs).

JR

 

[mattiasNYC]

President Obama just about summed it up,"One day America will have to reckon with the fact that this doesn't happen in other advanced countries".

I'm glad to hear somebody watches and likes President Obama's speeches. I literally turned off my TV set after hearing him turn that tragic church shooting into another episode of his racial screed.

JR

I'm going to assume here that you're NOT accusing Obama for 'playing the race card' on an issue where a white guy massacred 9 people because of their black skin color. Tell me that's not where you're going with the above.

 

[JohnRoberts]

President Obama just about summed it up,"One day America will have to reckon with the fact that this doesn't happen in other advanced countries".

I'm glad to hear somebody watches and likes President Obama's speeches. I literally turned off my TV set after hearing him turn that tragic church shooting into another episode of his racial screed.

JR

I'm going to assume here that you're NOT accusing Obama for 'playing the race card' on an issue where a white guy massacred 9 people because of their black skin color. Tell me that's not where you're going with the above.

It is a tragedy no matter the color of the individuals involved, I have tried to avoid the wall to wall coverage of this incident so won't expound on details. But yes it appears to be a white gunman who killed black people in a church.  I prefer to wait for the dust to settle and when the facts are better understood  before going deeper into this one.

I will concede it is hard for Obama to not comment on the obvious hate crime characterization. I do not know the specific trigger that set this disturbed individual off, and we may not know for a while.

I guess I have a problem with Obama's one note banjo, but this time it agrees with the sheet music. Out of respect for the recent dead I will try to ignore the politics.

JR

 

[DaveP]

I understand a lot more from the discussion we've had.

There are similar incidents in Europe like the Norwegian guy mentioned earlier and there have been three in the UK in recent memory, Hungerford 1987, Dunblane 1996 and Cumbria 2010.  I don't know all the statistics but if the US were to be pro rata on population (5x) then you would have had 15 in thirty years.  The UK ones were all guys who had access to guns and went off their rocker or had some deep resentment.  It all depends on whether you count the UK as an advanced nation I guess.
best
DaveP

 

[Krcwell]

I am what many uninformed people would label a "gun nut".  The contents of my gun safe are second only to my recording and diy gear in terms of expendable income spent. I've been an avid sport shooter, gun enthusiast, and collector for about 12 years. The only other forum I've ever participated in is my local gun enthusiast forum that has spawned many "real life" friendships I hold dear.

I also turned into a devout liberal leading in to and mostly throughout the first Obama administration. I was in my mid-20's working in Chicago, and it was the cool thing to do, also hate anything Republican. Looking back, I had no basis for my hate, and believe me, it was hate. I listened to the most vitriolic of liberal talk radio and developed a holier-than-thou attitude towards my conservative friends, which was every great friend I had made through our shared love of guns. I tried countering every anti-Obama comment with arguments basically taken from Alinsky's rules. Obama wants to impose more federal law on guns? Now, I have never veered from my support of the literal interpretation of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. At the time, I still figured any thought of Obama going after guns was Right Wing hate, hell, I might have even thought they were being racist.

I remember during the 2012 debates, Obama answered a question about gun control by saying he supports renewing the "assault weapon" ban. This was the first time my newfound liberal ideology clashed with my extensive knowledge of gun laws, statistics, the constitution, and common sense. Keep in mind, guns were never really a mainstream issue until December 2012, post-election.

Then, Sandy Hook. I in no way wish to diminish the awfulness that happened there.

I saw how this massacre was used as a political tool to twist a debate I was actually knowledgeable about, gun laws. Democrats demonized gun owners, and the vitriol was intense. I knew the facts and saw how they were twisted. 40% of guns bought without background check? Don't even get me started on that BS statistic. The list of lies was extensive.

It's extremely hard to admit you were wrong and eat crow, apologizing to all your conservative gun buddies for the downright shameful tactics you had used to try belittling them, but they were just happy I had finally pulled my head out of my...

Long story short: this is how I learned to step back and question the narrative I was being fed and willingly eating. The narrative being fed on guns is downright horseshit, and I have seen both sides.

 

[JohnRoberts]

My apologies if some of my comments seem insensitive.

I have lived in the deep south for a few decades so racism is not an abstract concept. We have some local (very bad) history of how ugly the civil rights struggle was (before I lived here) and we refuse to let that history be forgotten. Every week when I do my shopping I take the Medgar Evers memorial exit off the interstate.  He was murdered about 50 miles west of where I live now.

Then was then and now is now... NOW IS NOT THEN, then was really bad, now isn't IMO.

JR

 

[Rocinante]

Umm it's still pretty bad; a good ol boy punk kid with a ton of southern pride just walked into an African American church and killed nine innocent people.  That would be considered pretty bad by a lot of people.
Even the judge who did the bond hearing for Roof said "that the killer’s family members were victims as well." and that they should be offered sympathy.  Which is better than what he said over one bond case 12 years ago: “There are four kinds of people in this world—black people, white people, red necks, and n---rs,”
So yeah it's still pretty bad.
I know I am an ignorant schmuck who believes in loving your fellow man and helping those in need and all that goobledyguck.  Liberal junk.
I am not even liberal.  I'm probably worse.
Obama is black.  He is African American.  It doesn't matter if he wasn't raised in 'the hood' that's not what makes someone black.    He has been called the N word and treated like a subhuman.  He has felt racism.  Doesn't matter if he went to an ivy league school.  African Americans are allowed to have money.  And still feel.  I've heard southern racists calling him the N word.  Him having an opinion on a church where nine African Americans were killed because they were black isn't jumping on a soapbox.
He's hurt.  He's reacting to being hurt.  As he should.  He's African American.  He's also the president.  Like it or not..
Cops have been killing African Americans and getting away with it for a good while.  Whole police stations have been found to have tried to cover up murders done by their fellow officers.
50% of the people I work with are African American.  Everyday these girls tell me stories of some comment or gesture or passive aggressive clerk or bus driver etc... who treated them like they had done something wrong.  Everyday this happens to them. 
Everyone of them has had a relative seriously hurt or killed by a police officer.
A few of them have been abused themselves.
I have no idea what that feels like but I am sure after 30 years it would be either unbearable or I guess you just go numb.
It's been painful the last few days.
It's probably Obama's fault. 

 

[Spiritworks]

I know I am an ignorant schmuck who believes in loving your fellow man and helping those in need and all that goobledyguck. 

This is neither Liberal nor Conservative. When the entire human race reaches that level, and actually practices it daily, we might just be in heaven.

 

[Krcwell]

I know I am an ignorant schmuck who believes in loving your fellow man and helping those in need and all that goobledyguck. 

This is neither Liberal nor Conservative. When the entire human race reaches that level, and actually practices it daily, we might just be in heaven.

Well said. My hope is that Americans respond to this act of hate with overwhelming acts of love towards their fellow man. I watched a video of the victim's representatives making statements to the killer at the bond hearing. They showed the very best of humanity and forgave him, expressed love to him. It brought me to tears.

The killer wanted a race war. The ones most hurt by his act have responded with love and forgiveness. I hope the rest of America follows their example.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Umm it's still pretty bad; a good ol boy punk kid with a ton of southern pride just walked into an African American church and killed nine innocent people.  That would be considered pretty bad by a lot of people.
Even the judge who did the bond hearing for Roof said "that the killer’s family members were victims as well." and that they should be offered sympathy.  Which is better than what he said over one bond case 12 years ago: “There are four kinds of people in this world—black people, white people, red necks, and n---rs,”
So yeah it's still pretty bad.

That kind of race baiting is exactly why I don't watch the wall to wall coverage. I left my TV set off for most of yesterday.

So a judge made a non-PC comment 12 years ago. If you can overcome the emotional knee-jerk response to the indelicate language to grok the meaning, what that judge was saying is that there are good and bad white people (rednecks), and good and bad black people (the N-word white people are not allowed to use).  This is absolutely true, nobody would ever claim that all white people are pure as the driven snow , and likewise nobody claims all black people fit the negative stereo type.  The judge's comment is very specifically discrediting racial stereotypes, and racial thinking. 

I still follow the news and this may be defined as a hate crime by the numbers and symptoms, but the general mood is far different than the bad old days when this kind of behavior was encouraged or applauded.  Everybody white, black, or orange are appalled by this evil act.

Study the civil rights history going back 50 years for truly bad behavior, but regurgitating this old and ugly history to explain current events is disingenuous, and IMO blatantly political..

I do not know all the facts (nor does anybody yet), but this kid seems like an unstable, unbalanced, individual who used racial hatred as the outlet for his version of crazy , and he does not reflect the local community culture.  I don't live in SC but I find this broad cultural characterization as racist offensive.

I know I am an ignorant schmuck who believes in loving your fellow man and helping those in need and all that goobledyguck.  Liberal junk.
I am not even liberal.  I'm probably worse.

ommmm....  group hug

Obama is black.  He is African American. 

Part black,,,  According to the scientists the differences in DNA between white and black are insignificant.  While some out of ignorance attach huge significance to skin color. It has been a part of our hunter-gatherer evolutionary wiring to be distrustful of outsiders. Skin color, language, even economic status are all default criteria that trigger this subliminal "don't trust" response,

It doesn't matter if he wasn't raised in 'the hood' that's not what makes someone black. 

Just ask Rachel Dozeal about what makes someone black,  ;D another story I try to avoid. Her only crime seems to be lying about her background. If she wants to be black, and Elizabeth Warren wants to be an indian, more power too them.  We all bleed red, more alike than different. 

  He has been called the N word and treated like a subhuman.  He has felt racism. 

That is the political response to policy criticism... "it's not the policy it's the man..".  I hate his policy, I do not hate him, while I wish he was never elected. 

Doesn't matter if he went to an ivy league school.  African Americans are allowed to have money.  And still feel.  I've heard southern racists calling him the N word.  Him having an opinion on a church where nine African Americans were killed because they were black isn't jumping on a soapbox.
He's hurt.  He's reacting to being hurt.  As he should.  He's African American.  He's also the president.  Like it or not..

huh....  I have said half joking that he is whiter than I am.

Here's a true anecdote... For a few months I lived in a suburb east of Atlanta that demographically was populated with wealthy black professionals and the minority white population were generally poor and under-educated. It took me a while to figure out what was going on but I experienced a reverse racism where the ASSumption was that black people were doctors or lawyers, and white people were trailer trash (the judge's rednecks). It was an eye opener for me but guess what, it is human nature to pre-judge strangers. Anyone who says he doesn't do that is lying.

For a completely opposite experience, when I first moved to MS back in the '80s there were still remnants of the former racist culture.  I recall one time going into a roadside stand to buy some barbecue for lunch and the older black lady waiting in line moved aside to let me go in front of her. I of course insisted on her being served first, but echos of the old ways still exist in the minds of older adults.

This is why de-segregation is so important, we can't re-write the social programming of the older people, but kids are still plastic and learn from their daily interactions that race is not the huge dividing criteria  that their parents may make it.

Cops have been killing African Americans and getting away with it for a good while.  Whole police stations have been found to have tried to cover up murders done by their fellow officers.

This is not a simple racial issue, more an economic-demographic issue.  There does need to be more of a media spotlight shined on all violence in poor inner city neighborhoods.  The majority of that violence is peer on peer and I define peers by their socio-economic status not race.

Just like any profession when you put them all under the microscope you will find outliers who bahave badly. Police generally get the benefit of the doubt because the nature of their work requires split second life or death decisions. They deserve support, but not a free pass when found guilty of criminal behavior. It is still against the law for police to kill people.

50% of the people I work with are African American.  Everyday these girls tell me stories of some comment or gesture or passive aggressive clerk or bus driver etc... who treated them like they had done something wrong.  Everyday this happens to them. 
Everyone of them has had a relative seriously hurt or killed by a police officer.
A few of them have been abused themselves.

I'll have to take your word for that. That sounds very bad.

I have no idea what that feels like but I am sure after 30 years it would be either unbearable or I guess you just go numb.
It's been painful the last few days.
It's probably Obama's fault.

Yes I believe words have consequences and and there are multiple advocates that gain currency and power from the offense industry.  As I have said multiple times before this shooting in SC is a tragedy, but trying to turn this into a poster boy for our problems in poor inner cities is just wrong. In fact this mismanagement of  troubled cities is the real crime.  The reason these inner city youth can't find jobs has less to do with skin color and more to do with poor local governance that negatively impacts business opportunity there.

Of course this is just my opinion based on decades of living in different regions and paying attention. Maybe I'm wrong.

JR

 

[Rocinante]

John,
While the first paragraph of that was directed at your statement the others weren't.  They were a response to what several people said.  I apologize for the confusion.  Poor emphasis and grammatical structure on my part.  It was pretty late.
Now regarding you being wrong.
Yes I found the statement that you feel it that its not as bad to be pretty erroneous and even a little offensive.
Consider what the confederate flags not waving at half stack after the tragedy would feel like to the  African Americans in the south.
Or even the fact that they're there at all.  Is that one of the ways to remember the horrible crimes that were committed in the south?
One of the reminders?
There are highways and streets named after generals/slave-owners that were in the confederate army.
Imagine what it must feel like to walk down streets named after someone who might/could have owned your grandmother?
Who fought to own people like her.
We have not gone far enough since the 60s.

I've traveled a good deal.
I'm not trying to compare.
In my twenties it was via freight trains and across continents and in the later dozen years it was with bands on tour.
Several of the bands I was in had several African American musicians.
These were my friends.  Most of us were from NY and a few of them had never really been outside the city.
Maybe you feel like the south has gotten better and its true they are not dragging people out of their homes and lynching them like they had but its still very apparent the lines between black and white in the south.  My friends and band-mates felt it.  I felt it.
I am sure it is hard to see when you are in the thick of it. I do not think you are a racist. I want that to be clear.
Getting pulled over was usually pretty horrible of an experience.  None of us did or do drugs.  We were all completely without record yet they were increasingly rough with the us and outright violent and paranoid of our black band mates.  They kept them in the back of the police car handcuffed and threatened them and us repeatedly.  A few times they locked someone up for no reason.
I can't tell you how scary that was.
This is not uncommon.  Many other bands we knew or toured with with that had African American members also received the same treatment in the south.  Often they just avoided the south completely.  They were afraid.  And I couldn't blame them.  No matter how awesome Chapel Hill, Ashville, Athens, Atlanta, Austin and New Orleans (just to name a few) were.  Great towns all of them.  Great shows.  But those places in between were dangerous.
Is this only in the south?
Hell no!
It's in every nook and corner in America.  It needs to end.  When the girls at work tell me how everyone stared at them when the alarm went off in the department store at the Mall of America even though it was some old white lady who had set it off returning something I cringe.
They're in their mid to late twenties so they're not punk kids. They're hard working adults yet everyone treated them like they had commited a crime right up until that white lady revealed the items she was returning still had a tag.
And then it was business as usual. No harm no foul.  Except they felt fouled.  That's everyday racism. And we should be ashamed its still an ongoing problem.
Now regarding your remark about Obama being half black.
Bi-racial people are not spared peoples prejudice or abhorrent racism because they are only half black.  It doesn't work like that.  People call them N****s regardless if they are only half black.  They are not white.  In the check box under black or white they don't pick both.  They pick black.
And it's not for you and I to decide if they are right or wrong.
As long as they feel peoples hatred and are prejudged because their skin isn't light enough they will have no choice but to check that box.
I am certain there are many times they wish they didn't have to.

A top NRA board member suggested that the pastor (who at one time was a us senator and called for tighter restrictions on guns) was partially to blame for the patrons deaths.  He claimed that the pastor's opposition to a bill that would have allowed individuals to carry concealed weapons in churches is the reason Roof was able to murder nine people Wednesday night.

Now that is using a tragedy to push ones agenda.

I own.
I live in not the nicest of neighborhoods and will protect my friends and family at all costs.
That said I would be totally distraught if I killed someone.
I'm not wired for it.
But I believe I am of sane mind and it would be a last course of action.
I also believe that if my government were to get out of hand I need the ability to up-rise against it.

Gun control is a relatively complex issue.  I do not believe in the abolition of firearms.  But I am not very interested in giving some psychotic redneck the ability to buy enough ammunition to kill a church full of people either. So I believe that regulation is needed.  I am not going to pretend that I have the answer.  That my opinions are the end all. I think at the very least gun owners should have a serious background check and maybe a psychological examination.  I am still on the fence with this.