What Happened in Vegas?

[Gold]

I agree with the last sentence, but not about rationality. I think the definition of "rational" that you're applying seems to be too narrow. Sure, I do think that the word can be used to mean that if I want your car and I have a gun I could kill you and take your car then that was me being rational. There's a logical thread there. But on the other hand there's also the threat of me getting caught and then punished for the crime I committed, after which the net effect would be negative (i.e. the punishment is far worse than the benefit of the crime was good).

So I think "rational" is a somewhat "iffy" word to use here.

I seem to recall reading that some types of mentally ill people will act in accordance with local cultural norms, however not because they are in agreement, but because they understand that punishment will happen if they don't.

If your going to do the crime you should be willing to do the time.  It all would factor into worth it or not worth it. A rational decision.

If you kill your spouse in a jealous rage I think it's less clear. But we put those people in jail not a mental hospital.

You don't have to be mentally ill to obey local social norms. Most people do it when they travel.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I agree with the last sentence, but not about rationality. I think the definition of "rational" that you're applying seems to be too narrow. Sure, I do think that the word can be used to mean that if I want your car and I have a gun I could kill you and take your car then that was me being rational. There's a logical thread there. But on the other hand there's also the threat of me getting caught and then punished for the crime I committed, after which the net effect would be negative (i.e. the punishment is far worse than the benefit of the crime was good).

So I think "rational" is a somewhat "iffy" word to use here.

I seem to recall reading that some types of mentally ill people will act in accordance with local cultural norms, however not because they are in agreement, but because they understand that punishment will happen if they don't.

A classic manifestation of mental illness is a false perceived reality.  Last century I foolishly flew to Germany to work the musik messe with a flu and high fever.  After way too many hours of flying commercial I was extremely dehydrated and a little delusional. Not stark raving "shoot up the venue" delusional, but I literally thought my roommate (we shared hotel rooms) was trying to kill me...  He wisely let me have the room to myself.  After several missed meetings, a lot of water, and a day or two in bed, my equilibrium returned, but it was an interesting first hand insight into how twisted perceptions can become when brain chemistry is upset.  When you believe people around you are trying to kill you, it is rational to attack them in self defense. I didn't attack anybody but was fearful about my roommate, with no logical justification.

I am not speculating about the Las Vegas shooter, just trying to point out that mentally unbalanced people are not necessarily responsive to rational deterrents.

For the record I do not have a fever now and am well hydrated.  8)

JR

 

[DaveP]

You're not planning to come to France anytime soon, are you?

Wheew, that's good

DaveP

 

[CJ]

it must have been hard being that guy, to suffer from so much soul cancer, feeling totally detached from the world, trying to fill a hole  in his spirit that could not be filled, to be that bad off where you have to do something like this ,

a lot of people are too proud to ask for help, you see them dying in the gutter, still looking down on the world,
this guy was sick but he could not be honest about it to other people because of his pride,  the ego was not his amigo in this case.

alcohol is bad enuff without the mental illness part, Bill Wilson:

“No words can tell of the loneliness and despair I found in that bitter morass of self pity. Quicksand stretched around me in all directions. I had met my match. I had been overwhelmed. Alcohol was my master.”

 

[Phrazemaster]

For the record I do not have a fever now and am well hydrated.  8)

JR

But are you rational?

Sorry couldn't resist. You make excellent points. I know when I'm in physical distress or having low sugar or other health issues I see the world very differently, and "rational" isn't one of them. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Matador]

if some lunatic wants to kill a bunch of people, they will find a way.  what is preventing someone from driving a car at 100 MPH into a crowd?

taking away the weapon is treating the symptom, not the cause. But  I sure would like to see some type of warning light go up in a case where someone is stock piling weapons, as this might be a precursor to something evil. 

I agree with you in principle, and maybe it's just me, but I'll picking facing down a car, and an ice-pick twice on Sundays, given the choice. 

And it's because cars and ice picks were not expressly designed to dispatch the most number of people in the shortest amount of time.  A 5.56mm round was specifically designed around a 2800 ft/sec entry velocity to maximize tissue damage and bullet fragmentation.  The same can't be said about vehicles and ice picks.

But you raise good points: it would be useful to understand these motivations better.

 

[tands]

https://twitter.com/OsitaNwanevu/status/915598999658405891

 

[bluebird]

Something to consider is the emotional dysfunction and lack of empathy a psychopath has. Its an actual brain disease that can be seen in a scan. There's a really interesting article about a scientist who while studying psychopathy and doing clinical trials found out his own brain scan showed he had all the traits of a psychopath! After asking his family about his behavior, they were not surprised at all about his discovery.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/03/how-i-discovered-i-have-the-brain-of-a-psychopath

I bring this up because it may be possible that this disease is becoming more common just like attention deficit disorder in children these days. Its not known for sure why these types of disorders are becoming more common. Could be we are just more aware of it and its being diagnosed more often, or perhaps environmental pollutants, chemicals in food, constant tv/computer watching is the cause. These are not things that are going to be in decline anytime soon.

So its scary to think that in society's move towards technology and its relentless modernization is producing brain disorders that are extremely dangerous. People with no empathy...Zombies. Is it life imitating art or art imitating life.
I guess in our quest to create a safer, comfortable, more controlled lifestyle, there will be some side effects.

 

[DaveP]

We should depart from a hunter gather lifestyle as little as possible.

I do not own a smartphone but I love my laptop.

I don't write letters anymore but I can type quite well.

Evolution is a slow process, changes need to be small and considered.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

I bring this up because it may be possible that this disease is becoming more common just like attention deficit disorder in children these days. Its not known for sure why these types of disorders are becoming more common. Could be we are just more aware of it and its being diagnosed more often, or perhaps environmental pollutants, chemicals in food, constant tv/computer watching is the cause. These are not things that are going to be in decline anytime soon.

I don't think that's true. You have pharmaceutical companies and doctors who are heavily pushing these drugs and diagnostics onto children and adults. That's the only point you're missing in your options: more positive diagnoses today is because of higher profits.

There are literally doctors diagnosing 2-year olds with mental disorders, and putting them on brain chemistry altering drugs. No-one knows what kind of people they'll turn into. They're not doing this out of any concern for the mental health of these children either, and from where I'm standing, these 'doctors' need to be locked up. Today.

We also shouldn't forget that just in the 20th century over 100 million people were murdered by psychopaths. The cold blooded genocidal maniac thing, it's not new.

 

[Banzai]

Sure, I just read his posts on the Trump thread, but it's confusing two entirely separate issues. No-one will dispute the benefit of having treatments available, for people who really need them.

But here were discussing the prescribing of mind altering medications to people who don't need them! This has all come about because the tests and standards used by doctors to diagnose patients with mental illnesses, were created and promoted by the same drug companies selling the so called cures.

Read this article when you have time, and take in the numbers being thrown around. Especially the $25B a year in pharmaceutical sales for 3 common mental health diagnoses, in the US alone:

https://www.cchrint.org/issues/the-corrupt-alliance-of-the-psychiatric-pharmaceutical-industry/

For that kind of money, people will maim and kill without a second thought...

 

[DaveP]

I became suspicious about big pharma when it became obvious that they concentrated on chronic long term drug treatment, rather than short term cures like new antibiotics that the world needs urgently.

DaveP

 

[Gold]

And toenail fungus. Don't forget about the scourge of toenail fungus.

 

[DaveP]

And toenail fungus. Don't forget about the scourge of toenail fungus.

+1,
How could I forget

DaveP

 

[mattiasNYC]

If your going to do the crime you should be willing to do the time.  It all would factor into worth it or not worth it. A rational decision.

If you kill your spouse in a jealous rage I think it's less clear. But we put those people in jail not a mental hospital.

Key word is "should". Not all people function that way, and even people who do for the most part don't always do it.  I'm basically just saying that the term "rational" sort of depends on our perspective and how broad the context is.

As for people ending up in jail as opposed to a psych ward; well, our legal systems don't necessarily reflect what is "correct" or "good". In a lot of cases it's more a case of 'tradition', or established law, that doesn't change easily. I mean, suppose we find (as we have) that certain brain damage causes people to not resist some violent behaviors.... and suppose further that we can treat said defect.... do we now lock them up in jail because they are guilty and presumed responsible... or do we put them in a psych ward to help them learn how to combat their physical defect.... or do we perform surgery to fix them and then let them out?....

I think vengeance is highly overrated in our society and to our species, at least in this century, so given medical and scientific advances I really do think our legal systems are lagging behind quite a bit.

You don't have to be mentally ill to obey local social norms. Most people do it when they travel.

That's not what I proposed.

 

[mattiasNYC]

A classic manifestation of mental illness is a false perceived reality.  Last century I foolishly flew to Germany to work the musik messe with a flu and high fever.  After way too many hours of flying commercial I was extremely dehydrated and a little delusional. Not stark raving "shoot up the venue" delusional, but I literally thought my roommate (we shared hotel rooms) was trying to kill me...  He wisely let me have the room to myself.  After several missed meetings, a lot of water, and a day or two in bed, my equilibrium returned, but it was an interesting first hand insight into how twisted perceptions can become when brain chemistry is upset.  When you believe people around you are trying to kill you, it is rational to attack them in self defense. I didn't attack anybody but was fearful about my roommate, with no logical justification.

I am not speculating about the Las Vegas shooter, just trying to point out that mentally unbalanced people are not necessarily responsive to rational deterrents.

Agreed.

For the record I do not have a fever now and am well hydrated.  8)

JR

I myself am partial to single-malts to achieve that goal... hydration I mean, not not fever...

 

[mattiasNYC]

Something to consider is the emotional dysfunction and lack of empathy a psychopath has. Its an actual brain disease that can be seen in a scan. There's a really interesting article about a scientist who while studying psychopathy and doing clinical trials found out his own brain scan showed he had all the traits of a psychopath! After asking his family about his behavior, they were not surprised at all about his discovery.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/03/how-i-discovered-i-have-the-brain-of-a-psychopath

I bring this up because it may be possible that this disease is becoming more common just like attention deficit disorder in children these days. Its not known for sure why these types of disorders are becoming more common. Could be we are just more aware of it and its being diagnosed more often, or perhaps environmental pollutants, chemicals in food, constant tv/computer watching is the cause. These are not things that are going to be in decline anytime soon.

So its scary to think that in society's move towards technology and its relentless modernization is producing brain disorders that are extremely dangerous. People with no empathy...Zombies. Is it life imitating art or art imitating life.
I guess in our quest to create a safer, comfortable, more controlled lifestyle, there will be some side effects.

I would probably think it's a physical cause for it. I suppose one could quibble over whether or not behavior in early childhood - if it changes the physical development of the brain - qualifies as a physical cause or behavioral one, but I'm betting my money on 'physical'.

I do agree though that we're probably both better at studying and evaluating disorders more objectively, although it should possibly be noted that some that don't have clear physical causes may be more of a 'trend' than anything else. I do for example wonder if ADD is really a physical condition as often as it is diagnosed. Something about my childhood tells me that kids maybe just need a "smack on the fingers" at times to get them to calm the heck down and focus. It's a learning thing to a degree I think.

Either way, good points.

 

[CJ]

"I agree with you in principle, and maybe it's just me, but I'll picking facing down a car, and an ice-pick twice on Sundays, given the choice...."

i mentioned upstream that i see no use for assault riffles in the gun safe of any sane American,  hunting and self defense or plinking for kicks, yes, but you are right, assault riffles are designed for one purpose, to inflict damage upon a human. note that the bullets are not designed to kill, but to wound, the reason being that if you wound someone on the battlefield, it takes two people to carry him out, leave no man behind,  therefore you take out three people for the price of one. That may be the reason why you had 58 dead and 10 times that many wounded.

ask yourself this simple question , would a normal person do something like this?

no. normal people do not do things like this.
yeah, i know, there is no such thing as normal, normal is a setting on the dryer,

my point is i would love to see a ban on assault riffles, but then it just changes to a semi auto deer riffle, the damage might go down to 10 people dead and 50 wounded, still horrible, so taking the assault rifle out of the picture, although a step in the right direction, is good, keeping an eye out for people who need help and helping them might be better. his girlfriend must have known something was amiss with this guy,  is it his fault if he was born that way? no. but it is his fault if he does not try to do something about himself.  but some people are unable to do so, that's where we can make a difference if we run into somebody like this by sticking our hand out instead of walking or running away.

 

[DaveP]

We often talk about what is normal and there is a definition for it.

"In probability theory, the normal (or Gaussian) distribution is a very common continuous probability distribution. Normal distributions are important in statistics and are often used in the natural and social sciences to represent real-valued random variables whose distributions are not known". See attachment.

Almost everything in nature follows this rule.  From the velocity of electrons in a tube to  the length of dicks 

The shooter would have been in the low edge margins of what we call normal behaviour, which is in the middle.

DaveP

 

[Gold]

Key word is "should". Not all people function that way, and even people who do for the most part don't always do it.  I'm basically just saying that the term "rational" sort of depends on our perspective and how broad the context is.

As for people ending up in jail as opposed to a psych ward; well, our legal systems don't necessarily reflect what is "correct" or "good". In a lot of cases it's more a case of 'tradition', or established law, that doesn't change easily. I mean, suppose we find (as we have) that certain brain damage causes people to not resist some violent behaviors.... and suppose further that we can treat said defect.... do we now lock them up in jail because they are guilty and presumed responsible... or do we put them in a psych ward to help them learn how to combat their physical defect.... or do we perform surgery to fix them and then let them out?....

Sheesh, next you'll be saying whether people are good or bad is relative.