What Happened in Vegas?

[Matador]

This is not a political issue, it is not a gun issue, this is a mental health issue.

take away guns and the guy makes a bomb.

take away the ammonium nitrate and the guy grabs an ice pick. 

Are you arguing that if guns disappeared tomorrow, then the exact same number of people would be killed by bombs?  And if bombs were taken away, then we would loose 50k people a year in "mass ice-pickings"?

We have data on this: the number of people killed domestically by bombs is 5 orders of magnitude fewer than by guns.  Is it possible the reason for this is because there's on average a gun or two for every single American citizen?

 

[mattiasNYC]

This is not a political issue, it is not a gun issue, this is a mental health issue.

take away guns and the guy makes a bomb.

take away the ammonium nitrate and the guy grabs an ice pick.

i wish he were still alive today so we could ask him what happened in his life or in his brain that would make him commit such a despicable crime against  humanity,  then maybe we could learn something that might help prevent someone else from doing the same thing. can't fix everybody, last year it was that night club in Orlando Fl.  next year it will be someplace else, though i sincerely hope not. what do i do? i have to pray for the victims and the perp. why the perp? so he does not steal time from my life, he has stolen enough.

;D

 

[CJ]

if some lunatic wants to kill a bunch of people, they will find a way.  what is preventing someone from driving a car at 100 MPH into a crowd?

taking away the weapon is treating the symptom, not the cause. But  I sure would like to see some type of warning light go up in a case where someone is stock piling weapons, as this might be a precursor to something evil. 

On the other side of the coin, note that a permit to carry a concealed firearm would not have made any difference in this case, unless someone is good enough to take out a sniper hundreds of yards away with a Glock 9mm with out causing any other damage.

 

[mattiasNYC]

taking away the weapon is treating the symptom, not the cause.

I think you're setting up a false dichotomy now. Two follow-up questions pop up in my stupid head;

1 - Do you draw a line at all?
2 - Where is that line drawn / and why...: after hand guns? semi-autos? autos? hand grenades? surface-to-air missiles?

* If we are to ignore weapons because "guns don't kill people", then there is no reason to disallow one weapon and allow another.

* But if we do decide to disallow some weapons then that's going to be for a reason. Once we acknowledge what that reason is we can discuss where the line should be drawn. And this is obviously where all people land eventually, so let's try to be honest about it and not imply that there is no line....

 

[CJ]

i see no reason why someone should own an assault rifle and a ton of ammo,
a hunting rifle, no problem. a 12 gauge if your family lives an hour away from the nearest cop, no problem,  maybe a 45 auto to do some rapid fire at the campsite for kicks, maybe a black powder rifle for all the civil war freaks,  maybe a Colt Anaconda in 45 long to keep the Grizz out of your ice box, anything past that and the alarm signals go off. i gave the cops my SKS and the 500 rounds of Russian hollow point after i got my kicks watching gatorade bottles full of water vaporize, gotta grow up sometime, plus, did not want someone breaking into the apt and stealing it and having to face the guilt after somebody shot up a shopping mall with it, the cops made me stand away from the vehicle as they cleaned out the trunk of the buick,  and they did not say thank you,  you hear stories about some 90 year old granny killing an armed intruder, but that percentage is pretty small, did you now that a knife is the most effective weapon for anything inside of 20 ft? Ask Len Thompson. 

me? that "country boy can survive" macho  mentality is slowly losing it's appeal, especially after every screwed up nightmare like fear and loathing in las vegas, innocent men and women just out to have a good time i mean wtf? if your life is so miserable where you have to do something like that, why not just get drunk and jump off a bridge somewhere?  did you hear that guy;s brother talking about the perp, he was just as nuts as his brother,

self defense for me nowadays?  i can't get er done with a baseball bat and 911 then they can have whats left of my pitiful life.  ;D

What are the crime stats for nations where firearms are illegal?  Check into that sometime.
What if a home invader knew that nobody had any firearms inside? open season. not everybody owns a meth'ed out pit bull,

 

[Gold]

taking away the weapon is treating the symptom, not the cause.

I don't know why everyone acts like it's irrational to kill  someone or you have to be mentally deranged to kill someone.

Violence and aggression is part of human nature. That's why it happens.
Gun control is about making it harder to do so. Murder is as old  as humans. Treat the cause? Seriously?

 

[CJ]

no you do not have to be deranged to kill someone, cops do it all the time.

but to murder 58 innocent people who you do not even know, do you not think that there might be some type of insanity going on there?  an emotional sickness? some type of  malady that might need attention?

 

[DaveP]

I don't know why everyone acts like it's irrational to kill  someone or you have to be mentally deranged to kill someone.

Violence and aggression is part of human nature. That's why it happens.
Gun control is about making it harder to do so. Murder is as old  as humans. Treat the cause? Seriously?

Plus 1

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

I think you're setting up a false dichotomy now. Two follow-up questions pop up in my stupid head;

1 - Do you draw a line at all?
2 - Where is that line drawn / and why...: after hand guns? semi-autos? autos? hand grenades? surface-to-air missiles?

* If we are to ignore weapons because "guns don't kill people", then there is no reason to disallow one weapon and allow another.

* But if we do decide to disallow some weapons then that's going to be for a reason. Once we acknowledge what that reason is we can discuss where the line should be drawn. And this is obviously where all people land eventually, so let's try to be honest about it and not imply that there is no line....

Plus 1
This is the logic behind gun control around the world, except the USA.

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

no you do not have to be deranged to kill someone, cops do it all the time.

but to murder 58 innocent people who you do not even know, do you not think that there might be some type of insanity going on there?  an emotional sickness? some type of  malady that might need attention?

I think it is just called hatred.  In his case money did not buy him happiness, just the reverse.
He has internalised it until the final showdown.

DaveP

 

[CJ]

yeah your right. it was just hatred. he went into starbucks and ordered a large coffee and told them to leave room for cream and sugar and they filled it all the way so he copped a resentment and decided to start stockpiling guns and ammo and set up cameras and then his anger made him pull the trigger.

you would have to be self delusional to think that this guy did not have some sort of huge mental problem.

 

[Gold]

but to murder 58 innocent people who you do not even know, do you not think that there might be some type of insanity going on there?  an emotional sickness? some type of  malady that might need attention?

Yes, of course.  This is not your run of the mill murder.

  If I want what you have and kill you for it it is not irrational. It's perfectly rational. Everyone understands that logic.

 

[CJ]

Wow, that dude went to Chicago to scope out Lalapoloza, what a freak, 

hate and anger are normal human emotions that everybody has at one time or another, that's just life. most people do not act out the way this guy did.  i just think we had some organic brain damage here , maybe induced by drugs and alcohol, or maybe his neurotransmitters quit firing, the booze quit working and he could not stand life, retail therapy was not working, gambling was not working, the girlfriend was not working, prolonged misery that led to insanity, maybe coupled with some family history of genetic mutation,

note to gun shop owners: after the 15th assault rifle, put the guy on the list,
after 30 assault rifles, 10,000 rounds of ammo and 10 bumper stocks,  Call the Frickin Police!!!

do they do this? hell no, just interested in the profits, small business is tough.

maybe some of these apply:

"Most experts believe psychopaths and sociopaths share a similar set of traits. People like this have a poor inner sense of right and wrong. They also can’t seem to understand or share another person’s feelings. But there are some differences, too.

Do They Have a Conscience?

A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong.

A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior.

Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.

They’re Not Always Violent

In movies and TV shows, psychopaths and sociopaths are usually the villains who kill or torture innocent people. In real life, some people with antisocial personality disorder can be violent, but most are not. Instead they use manipulation and reckless behavior to get what they want.


“At worst, they’re cold, calculating killers,” Kipnis says. Others, he says, are skilled at climbing their way up the corporate ladder, even if they have to hurt someone to get there.

If you recognize some of these traits in a family member or coworker, you may be tempted to think you’re living or working with a psychopath or sociopath. But just because a person is mean or selfish, it doesn’t necessarily mean he has a disorder."

 

[DaveP]

I think it could be an adult extension of the college shooter mentality.

Someone who feels socially excluded.

He targeted music festivals where people are all happy together, he was not able to join in that kind of social grouping, much the same as similar cliques at college,  Resentment turns to hatred.

This is not normal behaviour but he appeared to be normal to his immediate family.

DaveP

 

[CJ]

this is  what his barber just said:

",,,he came in and got his hair cut, and again, smelled of alcohol,.."

so there's the alcoholic part, what about the psychopath:

"Beig (his barber) characterized their relationship (with his girlfriend) as quite cold and distant -- she said she didn't see them interacting in any sort of intimate way."

there you have it, the alcoholic psychopath,  full of sorrow, emotionally unstable, mentally ill, dangerous,

drinking and gambling for 8 hours before he went off the deep end,

you know most alcoholics never commit suicide when they are drunk? it is always when they are sober,

why should you kill yourself when your drunk, your probably in a happy go lucky mood.

so the whisky wasn't workin for this guy anymore, otherwise he would have been drunk after the 8 hours of gambling  and drinkin and probably would have just gone upstairs and passed out like most drunks.

he was stark raving sober even after drinking, those GABA receptors were burned out, happens to a lot of people at that age,  his glutamate levels were probably driving him bat sh*t crazy, (glutamate is the "speed" your body makes to compensate for the alcohol) 

so the drink was no longer workin, and being sober drove him nuts because he was a whack job with no way to fix it. and if he can't be happy, he is gonna make it so nobody else is. selfish and self centered to the bone.

so was this guy a monster from outer space? no, he was one of ten born with a variation of the alcohol dehydrogonese enzyme, coded off the #4 chromosone, which metabolizes alcohol more slowly as to not feel the bad effects of drinking (alcoholic)  He also had outside issues, (psychopath), this type o alcoholic is mentioned by Dr Slikworth on page XXX of the big book of alcoholics anonymous.

Can AA fix this type of alcoholic?  Big Book page 58: "There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders , but many of them do recover if thy have the capacity to be honest"

apparently this guy was not able to be honest with himself.

so the guy is a psychopathic alcoholic, he has money, gets into retail therapy by buying guns, drinks a ton, lives in a gun friendly state, girlfriend ain't workin so he sends her away, goes on a bender and flips out in the weird town of las vegas,

know somebody like this? don't walk the other way, see if you can get them into rehab or some other type of program, you may save somebody's life.

 

[DaveP]

CJ,
There is a lot of sense in what you say, but I would have thought he would have shot up a casino, there must be some key to the fact he hates music festival goers.

DaveP

 

[mattiasNYC]

I don't know why everyone acts like it's irrational to kill  someone or you have to be mentally deranged to kill someone.

Violence and aggression is part of human nature. That's why it happens.
Gun control is about making it harder to do so. Murder is as old  as humans. Treat the cause? Seriously?

I agree with the last sentence, but not about rationality. I think the definition of "rational" that you're applying seems to be too narrow. Sure, I do think that the word can be used to mean that if I want your car and I have a gun I could kill you and take your car then that was me being rational. There's a logical thread there. But on the other hand there's also the threat of me getting caught and then punished for the crime I committed, after which the net effect would be negative (i.e. the punishment is far worse than the benefit of the crime was good).

So I think "rational" is a somewhat "iffy" word to use here.

I seem to recall reading that some types of mentally ill people will act in accordance with local cultural norms, however not because they are in agreement, but because they understand that punishment will happen if they don't.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Plus 1
This is the logic behind gun control around the world, except the USA.

DaveP

hmmmm.... agreement..... I'm slipping...... 

 

[mattiasNYC]

What are the crime stats for nations where firearms are illegal?  Check into that sometime.
What if a home invader knew that nobody had any firearms inside? open season. not everybody owns a meth'ed out pit bull,

I don't think the primary issue is crime stats, but the severity of crimes relative to what weapons are being used.

If I remember correctly there's a bigger chance (in the US) of a gun in a family home harming a family member than being used  successfully against a home invader. I also wonder just how potential criminals know if someone has a gun or not. Surely it's not advertised. Lastly, you also have to wonder if equipping people in general with weapons simply doesn't just raise the stakes over all, meaning criminals then just adapt. More or bigger guns is incentive for criminals to get more or bigger guns basically.

 

[mattiasNYC]

CJ,
There is a lot of sense in what you say, but I would have thought he would have shot up a casino, there must be some key to the fact he hates music festival goers.

DaveP

Well, if the man stockpiled weapons not just in general but in his hotel room, suggesting more than one trip to do so, it sure seems fairly premeditated. Mental illness? Yeah, I'm on board with that analysis regardless of if it's our layman-version of it or a clinical one, I can see both being 'true'. Temporary insanity? Hardly, given the premeditation.