What Ics to use on a Neve V series ?

[evil grill]

In a similar vein, my ADT console makes use of plenty of RC4558 op amps. Replacing those with 5532 oder better doesn't do anything useful but increases current draw. Thanks to thoughtful use of op amps this large format console gets only warm but never hot and works with a passively cooled external PSU.

My experience with opamp swaps:
I had a Tascam M15-B in the 90s. I recapped a channel and compared. Better resolution. Then I changed all 4558s to 5532 in one channel and compared. Better resolution. So I changed the rest of the channels. No regrets.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

My experience with opamp swaps:
I had a Tascam M15-B in the 90s. I recapped a channel and compared. Better resolution. Then I changed all 4558s to 5532 in one channel and compared. Better resolution. So I changed the rest of the channels. No regrets.

No doubt 5532 provides objectively and subjectively better performance than 4558. Everything is better in the former, noise, slew-rate, bandwidth, headroom, at the cost of doubling current draw, which may test the limits of the power supply, and at the risk of creating instability if decoupling is not adequate.

 

[jensenmann]

Always wanted to test drive an adt desk. Sadly I do not know of any on this side of the world.

ADT refused to sell to the US market since they didn´t want to deal with setting up a distribution and repair infrastructure.
If you want to test-drive an ADT desk then pass by, I have one in my day job I couldn´t be happier with the desk, no GAS for any other big name desk over here.

 

[TomCee]

This historical review is always interesting.
[As you know, I was a design engineer at Audio Designs and Mfg. (later ADM Technology) in the 1970s and 1980s. ]

In those days, we were all aware of the (supposed) superiority of Neve circuits. Looking back now, it is obvious that we were way ahead of Neve (you can study the circuits yourself). The dynamic range of our systems was from a ein of better than -128dBu and a peak output of +28dBu.

The durability of the boards was superb - many of the modules (and a few complete boards) are still operating.

Cheers,
TomC

 

[living sounds]

I haven't shared this lately, but back when I was writing my "Audio Mythology" magazine column I did a comparison of +4dBu and -10dBV nominal 0VU systems. The ASSumption would be that the +4 dBu system with a few dB hotter 0VU should have superior performance all around. That was not the case looking at objective metrics. The S/N was limited by the ein of electronic parts available back in the 1980s, so likely even better today using modern op amps. Surprisingly back then the -10dBV systems could deliver slightly better headroom/dynamic range.

A lot of the -10dBV gear used relatively slow op amps, but did not slew limit under normal use because the nominal signal levels were also smaller.

As with any design its all about execution.

JR

I hear from a lot of mastering guys, too, that they work at rather low levels. Interfering with modern gear I'm always struck how low levels in my console are.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I hear from a lot of mastering guys, too, that they work at rather low levels. Interfering with modern gear I'm always struck how low levels in my console are.

I ran levels inside my big mixers at -2 dBu since the balanced output drivers had +6dB of voltage gain. This way the output stage headroom was consistent with internal headroom.

JR

 

[Newmarket]

wrt internal operative levels - am I correct in thinking that Neve ran at lower than usual levels so giving greater apparent headroom. ?

 

[sahib]

wrt internal operative levels - am I correct in thinking that Neve ran at lower than usual levels so giving greater apparent headroom. ?

I do not know Neve in general but I have just checked the schematic for VR line input stage and it runs on -6dBu. Amek also operated at -6dBu and (naturally) all of our products run on -6dBu operating level.

 

[Mihobro]

Back in the 90's I installed with the Manhattan Center crew several Neve VR's, Our final room, the Scoring control room next to the 7th floor ballroom had a 96 frame VR which was only recently decommissioned. Anyway, the VR had a remote patchbay, and between that and the machine room runs etc. we designed large wireways under the floor, (no loose computer floor tiles here), including to the racks that held the monitor amplifiers in the front wall . This console already had all the panels perforated by Neve and we assumed that it would still run hot. Well, we had installed a couple of AC supply hoses to keep the amps cool and also the old CRT monitors above them, and surprise, the cool air was running through the wireways and being distributed underneath and being pulled up into the Neve. Of course we planned it that way all the along (not) but the console did keep reasonably cool and limited a lot of the heat related problems our other Neves were having, especially before the perforated panel process. So my recommendation would also be to increase cool air supply under the console.
Most IC replacement mods I have seen, or did, were pretty much failures, with the exception of replacing NJE4556 Jfets with more modern versions of the same IC family. Slightly lowering power requirement sometimes, but more to bring the noise floor down I think we used 4580's, by staying in the same family you avoid a lot of the oscillation and other anomalies you can get. TLO84's for TLO74's etc. you get the idea. If the circuit is DC coupled, or an EQ circuit you better be prepared for unexpected results. There are many IC's that have a plus/minus supply, but they all do not center at the same place between the rails. Also Jfets have extremely high input impedances and that can affect circuit design. Others like the NE5532 are good at pushing output loads, and can push more current on it's output. ( thus the greater supply current needed) Most applications don't take advantage of these however, so in a pinch any dual op amp with the same pinout can often be used as a replacement. But, it is not a good idea to change IC's from the original design, especially in high quality pieces like Neve VRs, that use several different families of OP amps for different reasons.

 

[Gold]

One of the tricks to get decent performance out of the Mackie 8buss was to run it at -10. Sounded way better.

With modern noise floors so low there is no reason to run hot levels.

 

[musgrave]

Back in the 90's I installed with the Manhattan Center crew several Neve VR's, Our final room, the Scoring control room next to the 7th floor ballroom had a 96 frame VR which was only recently decommissioned. Anyway, the VR had a remote patchbay, and between that and the machine room runs etc. we designed large wireways under the floor, (no loose computer floor tiles here), including to the racks that held the monitor amplifiers in the front wall . This console already had all the panels perforated by Neve and we assumed that it would still run hot. Well, we had installed a couple of AC supply hoses to keep the amps cool and also the old CRT monitors above them, and surprise, the cool air was running through the wireways and being distributed underneath and being pulled up into the Neve. Of course we planned it that way all the along (not) but the console did keep reasonably cool and limited a lot of the heat related problems our other Neves were having, especially before the perforated panel process. So my recommendation would also be to increase cool air supply under the console.
Most IC replacement mods I have seen, or did, were pretty much failures, with the exception of replacing NJE4556 Jfets with more modern versions of the same IC family. Slightly lowering power requirement sometimes, but more to bring the noise floor down I think we used 4580's, by staying in the same family you avoid a lot of the oscillation and other anomalies you can get. TLO84's for TLO74's etc. you get the idea. If the circuit is DC coupled, or an EQ circuit you better be prepared for unexpected results. There are many IC's that have a plus/minus supply, but they all do not center at the same place between the rails. Also Jfets have extremely high input impedances and that can affect circuit design. Others like the NE5532 are good at pushing output loads, and can push more current on it's output. ( thus the greater supply current needed) Most applications don't take advantage of these however, so in a pinch any dual op amp with the same pinout can often be used as a replacement. But, it is not a good idea to change IC's from the original design, especially in high quality pieces like Neve VRs, that use several different families of OP amps for different reasons.

I modified those channel strips, and the console is now parted out to two guys who both own modified consoles. never had a problem with the IC swap except a little more heat and a little more quiescent current. people who have these desks full of opa2134's love them. the power and ground changes helped too. the operating level is -6dBu to much to change..... I prefer -12dBu from +4 operating too. I can see less 2nd order stuff when I drop the operating level or put 100uf as the power decoupling at the op-amp on -6 systems.

 

[JohnRoberts]

One of the tricks to get decent performance out of the Mackie 8buss was to run it at -10. Sounded way better.

No comment about the Mackie But back in the 70s my personal test bench was a bunch of budget gear cobbled together. To extend my distortion resolution floor I fed the product output from my Heathkit distortion analyzer into the input of a second hand Spectrum Analyzer (Singer). I had to run my Heathkit down -10dB from its nominal zero to suppress distortion caused by the Heathkit audio path. Neither piece of bench equipment delivered a great resolution floor alone, but the two in series gave me a few ten dBs more resolution. I think I paid something like $700 for that old used Singer spectrum analyzer (30kHz bandwidth, 40 dB dynamic range) now we can just about do that with a free smart phone app.

With modern noise floors so low there is no reason to run hot levels.

Unless you are writing advertising copy.

JR

 

[Gold]

No comment about the Mackie

About a third of my income right after I graduated college was being a freelance wire monkey. I wired three to five Mackie/ ADAT or similar studios a year for about five years in the early to mid 90's. I was also an assistant in larger studios. So I got experience on everything from a Mackie through Neve 80 series to Neve V series. With lots of other stuff like Trident 24/ 80 series and TSM.

 

[Newmarket]

I do not know Neve in general but I have just checked the schematic for VR line input stage and it runs on -6dBu. Amek also operated at -6dBu and (naturally) all of our products run on -6dBu operating level.

Yes - that's along the lines I recall. For some reason. I recall -8dBu - but I'd say your schematics are likely more reliable than my memory .
Of course, it really all comes to the same thing thing technically. But ergonomics in terms of level / headroom affect user experience and usability.
In general I think the -2dBu level (as cited by JR) was/is more usual. Add in the 6dB gain from a "traditional" balanced output and there's your +4dBu line level.

 

[ruffrecords]

This historical review is always interesting.
[As you know, I was a design engineer at Audio Designs and Mfg. (later ADM Technology) in the 1970s and 1980s. ]

In those days, we were all aware of the (supposed) superiority of Neve circuits. Looking back now, it is obvious that we were way ahead of Neve (you can study the circuits yourself). The dynamic range of our systems was from a ein of better than -128dBu and a peak output of +28dBu.

As an ex Neve employee of the 70s I call that fighting talk. Yes maybe your EIN at max gain was a few dB better than Neve but at normal operating gains I bet there was nothing between them. OK so your max output is 28dBu compared to Neve's 26dBu. Definitely not a deal breaker and certainly not "streets ahead".

The durability of the boards was superb - many of the modules (and a few complete boards) are still operating.

Ditto

Cheers,
TomC

Cheers

Ian

 

[Newmarket]

As it happens I live round the corner from a studio that runs a Neve 5316.
https://www.brightonelectric.co.uk/
For clarity I have no commercial relationship with this business although used one of their rehearsal rooms some years ago.
I don't know the details of how maintenance is managed there.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Everybody loves their children and think their's are the best....

JR

 

[Brian Roth]

Having been around more than a few ADM and Neve desks in my lifetime, I respect both in terms of circuit design and construction.

ADM was most well known in broadcast (particularly television station) applications. Hence, it isn't as well known to the recording community.

Interestingly, I recall the NBC station in my home town had a Neve broadcast desk for a year or two, and for reasons unknown replaced it with an ADM!

Both companies built great consoles.

Bri

 

[pucho812]

Everybody loves their children and think their's are the best....

JR

Yes they do. The kid could be running around making a complete and utter mess and momma will defend it.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I hear from a lot of mastering guys, too, that they work at rather low levels.

Well, ME's deal with what they're given, and often it's a heavily compressed signal with peaks at -1dBfs. More rarely gentle, breathing mixes with headroom.

Interfering with modern gear I'm always struck how low levels in my console are.

I don't get it. Of course it depends somehow on your converters, but the typical tendancy with digital signals is to be closer to the max since there is no audible warning before clipping, oher than the meter hitting red.
Many people record at -18dBfs avg/-12 peak. With a converter calibrated at +24dBu/100%fs, that's an average level of +6dBu, that's +2VU. With a converter calibrated at 18dBu/100%fs, that's -4VU, which hardly qualifies as "rather low".
Maybe different habits in your neck of the wood?