What Ics to use on a Neve V series ?

[Newmarket]

Many mixer manufacturers went down this rabbit hole. I guess it was a financial debacle for most of them.
I was somewhat involved in the design of Soundcraft's take on the subject, which never saw the light of day.
I wonder how many of these hybrid mixers remain in existence today...

Yes. Dick Swettenham was "looking after" the assets from the Novation development (not the keyboard people) for the relevant bank/creditors in the 90s after the finances on that went bad. We ended up taking it into P&G and got it up and running to an extent internally. I recall bringing the kit up from Bristol to P&G in Blackwood in the company LWB Transit van that steered like a boat . And getting confused about directions when going back to the storage unit. Pre in-vehicle / mobile navigation. But it didn't go anywhere commercially.
IIRC level control etc was mainly realised with MDAC in the feedback arm around opamps. Zero Crossing detect to minimise the dreaded zipper noise.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

IIRC level control etc was mainly realised with MDAC in the feedback arm around opamps. Zero Crossing detect to minimise the dreaded zipper noise.

For this very reason, some manufacturers chose to use DAC's to control THAT VCA's.
IIRC the Soundcraft prototype had about 20 THAT chips per channel. In France, SAJE did the same in their Memory mixer. These continued to be operated in the early 00's.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Many mixer manufacturers went down this rabbit hole. I guess it was a financial debacle for most of them.
I was somewhat involved in the design of Soundcraft's take on the subject, which never saw the light of day.
I wonder how many of these hybrid mixers remain in existence today...

Yes. Dick Swettenham was "looking after" the assets from the Novation development (not the keyboard people) for the relevant bank/creditors in the 90s after the finances on that went bad. We ended up taking it into P&G and got it up and running to an extent internally. I recall bringing the kit up from Bristol to P&G in Blackwood in the company LWB Transit van that steered like a boat . And getting confused about directions when going back to the storage unit. Pre in-vehicle / mobile navigation. But it didn't go anywhere commercially.
IIRC level control etc was mainly realised with MDAC in the feedback arm around opamps. Zero Crossing detect to minimise the dreaded zipper noise.

For this very reason, some manufacturers chose to use DAC's to control THAT VCA's.
IIRC the Soundcraft prototype had about 20 THAT chips per channel. In France, SAJE did the same in their Memory mixer. These continued to be operated in the early 00's.

The early days of digital audio earned it a reputation for "different" sound quality, generally considered inferior to analog. Customers are generally resistant to change so held onto analog only audio paths longer than they rationally should have. Since the customer is always right multiple companies tried to deliver analog audio paths with digital controlled features. These were generally complicated and impractical.

I was friendly with one of these analog path only companies (APB) and it was a good business plan for them until the benefits of all digital audio paths became compelling economically. I was an old analog dog but relatively new to the dark (digital) side. I first designed for them a digital master section audio level meter (including my simultaneous "peak/VU" feature) that was superior to their former analog metering and actually cheaper to build. After that I helped them design a digitally controlled analog "automatic mixer". This was a good candidate for digital control because of all the computations involved in an effective NOM gain sharing algorithm.

I laid out my first (and only) prototype PCB with both (THAT) VCAs and DPOTs for each channel's gain controls. I populated the DPOTs first and they worked so well that I didn't bother populating the VCAs. I had incorporated hooks in the DPOT control software for zero crossing synchronization but the prototype didn't appear to need it. I saved the zero crossing feature for a later software upgrade if desired after stricter listening test. My suspicion is that the gain changes pushed to the DPOTs were so small and so frequent that gain change perturbations (like zipper noise) were not audible. FWIW I mostly listened to speech sources (coming from my TV), while I often used music sources for the cross modulation testing.

I was very disappointed when this project was dropped by the analog only mixer company as they faced growing competition from low cost but acceptable audio quality, digital audio mixer platforms.
===
IMO this avoidance of digital audio in modern electronics is an irrational market perception (audio myth?) not unlike several other still around.

JR

 

[Newmarket]

I can recall only the Euphonix CS series really breaking thru in digitally controlled analogue large desks (mainframe).

 

[Gold]

I remember the Trident DiAn but besides the Euphonix I can’t recall any others. I think there was a Harrison geared towards film mixing.

 

[scott2000]

Ahh. I wasn’t aware he put his name on a weighting filter.

thought I mistakenly opened up a GS thread....

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I remember the Trident DiAn but besides the Euphonix I can’t recall any others. I think there was a Harrison geared towards film mixing.

I believe Otari Status was quite popular on the West Coast...?

 

[pucho812]

I remember the Trident DiAn but besides the Euphonix I can’t recall any others. I think there was a Harrison geared towards film mixing.

The Dian, the desk Malcom felt shouldn’t have knobs as “knobs are for doors”.


Harrison had the series 10 and series 12 desks which were digitally controlled analog. They sounded nice.

 

[jensenmann]

In Germany there was the Lawo PTR. Discrete VCAs, IIRC 40 per channel. Insanely expensive: 1,5 Million German Marks in the early 80s for a 24channel desk.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Studio_für_Elektronische_Musik,_Lawo_PTR,_WDR,_Cologne.JPG

sorry for derailing the thread...

 

[Gold]

As a further derail I remember there was the AT&T digital mixing core that interfaced with the Neve V series. Never saw or heard one.

 

[Newmarket]

I remember the Trident DiAn but besides the Euphonix I can’t recall any others. I think there was a Harrison geared towards film mixing.

Yes. I had forgotten about the DiAn but was aware at the time. Am I correct in thinking it all ran on a single Z80 micro ?.
Where the analogue circuits under the control surface itself or; n a remote mainframe ?
fwiw I think the Euphonix series ran on multiple Z80s.

 

[Newmarket]

I believe Otari Status was quite popular on the West Coast...?

Wasn't aware of that but it might have bypassed it us here in the UK.
Although we became well aware of other OTARI products that they either originated or adopted.

 

[Brian Roth]

I believe Otari Status was quite popular on the West Coast...?

IIRC the Status only had Recall (like a SSL) for things like EQ, sends, etc. Faders and switches were actually digitally controlled.

Bri

 

[sahib]

One further derailment.

Lexicon Opus console ADC-DAC and all the digital hardware.



But the power supply takes the trophy. Notice the red wires for the logic supply. You could moor Titanic with that.

 

[Matt Syson]

There were 'assignable donsoles from Calrec and onepart designed but I am not sure ever got built from Audix (Saffron Walden) (Wendens Ambo to be accurate). the Calrecs were used at the BBC Television Centre and at an'independent' broadcaster whose nqme escqpes me this morning. the Calrec used plenty of VCAs and were good for the EQ sections as stereo tracking was possible where otherwise 4 gang pots would have been needed. The Dual 'redundant micro controller hardware was an area I had no 'experience' but was necessary for live broadcast confidence. I assembled and preliminary testing some sub sections of the Audix assignable in it's early days (1982)

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Wasn't aware of that but it might have bypassed it us here in the UK.
Although we became well aware of other OTARI products that they either originated or adopted.

Well, I was the Otari distributor at the time, and they never mentioned distributing their mixers.
It would have been a source of conflict with the Soundcraft distributionship.

 

[TomCee]

The early days of digital audio earned it a reputation for "different" sound quality, generally considered inferior to analog. Customers are generally resistant to change so held onto analog only audio paths longer than they rationally should have. Since the customer is always right multiple companies tried to deliver analog audio paths with digital controlled features. These were generally complicated and impractical.

I was friendly with one of these analog path only companies (APB) and it was a good business plan for them until the benefits of all digital audio paths became compelling economically. I was an old analog dog but relatively new to the dark (digital) side. I first designed for them a digital master section audio level meter (including my simultaneous "peak/VU" feature) that was superior to their former analog metering and actually cheaper to build. After that I helped them design a digitally controlled analog "automatic mixer". This was a good candidate for digital control because of all the computations involved in an effective NOM gain sharing algorithm.

I laid out my first (and only) prototype PCB with both (THAT) VCAs and DPOTs for each channel's gain controls. I populated the DPOTs first and they worked so well that I didn't bother populating the VCAs. I had incorporated hooks in the DPOT control software for zero crossing synchronization but the prototype didn't appear to need it. I saved the zero crossing feature for a later software upgrade if desired after stricter listening test. My suspicion is that the gain changes pushed to the DPOTs were so small and so frequent that gain change perturbations (like zipper noise) were not audible. FWIW I mostly listened to speech sources (coming from my TV), while I often used music sources for the cross modulation testing.

I was very disappointed when this project was dropped by the analog only mixer company as they faced growing competition from low cost but acceptable audio quality, digital audio mixer platforms.
===
IMO this avoidance of digital audio in modern electronics is an irrational market perception (audio myth?) not unlike several other still around.

JR

https://www.preservationsound.com/2018/08/1981-adm-custom-film-mixing-console-for-glen-glenn-sound/

This console (there were several delivered) was designed in 1979 with dbx2001 VCAs (2151 and other IC VCAs did not yet exist). This board was used at Glen Glenn (later Todd AO) for many years (perhaps decades). Each input strip had a 6502 processor driving an ADI DAC controlling the gain of the 2001. The 6502s communicated with a CP/M controller. Commercially - gave ADM a significant boost in the film industry. [Later (1981) ADM boards implemented 2151 VCAs in various configurations. ]
https://www.preservationsound.com/2018/08/1981-adm-custom-film-mixing-console-for-glen-glenn-sound/

Also, (1979) the 'MicroMac' was designed at Harris Broadcast Products - using Valley People gain (EGC101) cells driven by ADI DACs from a 80xx microprocessor. The work surface had optically sensed linear faders driving an external rack. Commercially did not do too well. Little (if any) documentation exists. Again, IC VCAs did not yet exist.

In both cases, the audio path was purely analog.

TomC

 

[Mihobro]

Going digital would always be all fun and games until you got to the summing amps. For a long time many engineers persisted in using analog summing amps, but with higher bit rates and depths, digital desks (and workstations) are greatly improved. The analog desk age was extended for decades, but eventually costs came down, and quality went up, and convinience of recall and automation made digital the dominant force. Still, the best way to get the 70's sound is to use a 70's desk, mics, recorder, studio etc.

 

[pucho812]

IIRC the Status only had Recall (like a SSL) for things like EQ, sends, etc. Faders and switches were actually digitally controlled.

Bri

I am not sure how much the status was like the otari concept elite or concept one but the concept had digital routing control similarly to a neve 8128. On the otari’s all routing was done in the center section. You would select a channel then hit the routing buttons in the center. You could store and recall the routing. The channels has regular analog circuits. The faders were also controlled, moving fader or vca. When the computer crashed on the desk it would throw all vca’s to full volume. Luckily it only did this when you shocked it with static discharge from the dry winter air. Nice feature.

 

[Brian Roth]

Yes, I've used or serviced a couple of Concepts over the years. From what I recall, the Status added recall to the feature set, although I've not seen or used a Status.

Bri