why so many TLM neumanns?

[craigmorris74]

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The point is that a mic doesn't need a transformer to be excellent.
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I agree, just wish Neumann would make a new, classic sounding mic with no transformer.

 

[Svart]

EVERY mic manufacturer design their mics to be impressive at Guitar Center, because that's how they sell, and that's how the majority of users want them.
The point is that a mic doesn't need a transformer to be excellent

Uh, my Gefells aren't sold at guitar center.  I ordered them from Gefell.  They don't have transformers either but their M7s don't have that hype either.

There's just no way a transformerless output circuit can add presence and/or substract midrange.

Uh, no offense but have you actually ever designed something analog?  Yes of course you can do that with a transformerless circuit.  I do it all the time at work...  Any circuit can have parasitics that can cause wonky frequency response..

 

[MagnetoSound]

There's just no way a transformerless output circuit can add presence and/or substract midrange.

Uh, no offense but have you actually ever designed something analog?  Yes of course you can do that with a transformerless circuit.  I do it all the time at work...  Any circuit can have parasitics that can cause wonky frequency response..

And likewise, you don't need a transformer to add NFB, HP or LP filtering, phase shift or any of the other misdemeanours that we know they like to commit.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

EVERY mic manufacturer design their mics to be impressive at Guitar Center, because that's how they sell, and that's how the majority of users want them.
The point is that a mic doesn't need a transformer to be excellent

Uh, my Gefells aren't sold at guitar center.  I ordered them from Gefell.  They don't have transformers either but their M7s don't have that hype either..

I was talking about mics that actually DO sell. I'm very familiar with Gefell, for I was their distributor from 1997 to 2002. I still have a pair of M296's and an M300 in daily use. Wonderful microphones, but very hard to sell; that's why you don't see them at GC.

There's just no way a transformerless output circuit can add presence and/or substract midrange.

.

Uh, no offense but have you actually ever designed something analog?  .

Been doing that for the last 36 years, thousands of units in use around the world. .

Yes of course you can do that with a transformerless circuit.  I do it all the time at work...  Any circuit can have parasitics that can cause wonky frequency response..

In a transformerless output stage, there's only one dominant zero and one dominant pole. One has to be a pervert to make it ring. What kind of frequency response shaping can you do with that? Sure, you can insert all sorts of EQ before...but in essence, a transformerless output stage doesn't lend itself too much tweaking.

 

[hotbaby]

i would suggest, theres more use for xfmr mics as they have a better noise floor and you can combine them with a nice tube pre if you want a harmonic effect...
a good tube mic is two times more expensive and their use is more limited...
i think that are some realistic two reasons.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

i would suggest, theres more use for xfmr mics as they have a better noise floor

? ?! there's no relationship between the output topology and the noise performance of a mic.

a good tube mic is two times more expensive

Being more expensive doesn't mean it's better, it may just mean it's a better mousetrap

and their use is more limited...

What does it mean? Is it better because it's limited? or limited because it's better?

 

[hotbaby]

I mean the TLM Line xformerLESS mics. sorry my mistake.

BUT anyhow are you right 

one thing: all tlms have a really good noise floor and are the first choice if you have no bless which mic could do a better job
I have sold my tlm103 years ago, i had it one week. mostly i work with my u87, vm-1 or some studio workhorses like akgs, shure sm7b... but if i
need it really qiet i simply find myself taking the tlm170. a little muffed sound but really lovely mids and of course the noise is faar away.
you see, i love character mics instead of the vm-1 which is very natural for my taste.

byebye

 

[Rossi]

The bottom line is: Transformerless is bad ... if Neumann does it. Most newer Gefell mics are transformerless, and I don't see anybody complaining. I also don't see anyone picking up on my offer of swapping my Gefell UM92S (transformer balanced, genuine M7 capsule) for a Neumann M149 (transformerless, K49 capsule made in Sennheiser factory, presumably by soulless androids). Which is why I think this topic has long ceased to be about output topologies or anything technical. I'm not saying TLM Neumanns are the greatest mics of all time. But there are excellent sounding mics that are transformerless. Schoeps abandoned transformers as early as the 60s, and their mics didn't sound any worse for it. On the other hand there are lots of transformer balanced mics that don't sound great. Most chinese mics use transformers.

I'd like to see a more ... err... "balanced" discussion about what's good and what's not so good about transformers in microphones and what transformer aspects could/should be emulated in a transformerless mic etc.

 

[hotbaby]

i read an article of neumann some time ago and i remember they mentioned that they invented the first transformerless 170 mic cause of the lower self noise and the resultion of a bigger dynamic range. The converse argument would be that an output transformator increas the self noise level and cause of that a smaller dynamic range... and as more i studied transformer here, yes transformers have their own sound character.

In fact, replacing a transformer with a electric ciruit saves space, money (to the manufacturer) and all these "character-aspects" coming with a transformer.
Rossy, I dont think theres not much more to discuss, not???perhaps i am wrong... but for my case transformer or electrical circuit (transformerless) are just two different sound influencing things which can not be discussed so much as every transformer sounds different. but generally transformers seems to be sensible parts that come with little self noise and increase the dynamic increase. The transfree circuit seems to be a low noise/low cost alternate which should must be more linear but must not sound better. For aspects you want to use a large membran mic for example nature/atmosphere recordings with low noise i would go for a tlm or a small membran like km184.
Perhaps it is not wrong to say that all tlm Mics aren´t noise sensible and have a really litle self noise floor. That is not mean that they sound "good" to me but for noise and dynamic aspects they are good. Talking only about output transformers or the transfree circuit should give the same answer, i think... The tlm 170 is a really good mic the tlm 103 is not as good sounding to me and so i cant speak tlms sound bad or good but both have no noise! TLMs could be build smaller, cheaper... many people who are interested in a cheap low noise mic of neumann like the 103. Wait... the tlm49 is big... why is it big as it could have less reflection with a smaller body. The technic of a tlm49 is just as big as a coin. They just acquire more customers with this big case and the sound aspects are on second place... thats why i sould my four tlm49s. it is a case bluff. The sound was not my taste but interesting ... however, no noise .

and "abbey road d enfer" was right, i cant compare tlm´s with my personal taste or other mics... thats nothing to do with the topic here.
But i dont think hes right with his mention that an output tranny would have no relationship between noise performance...