Best of the 'affordable' CK12-type capsules?

[Barry Hufker]

Thank you Tim for a very informative reply. I certainly understand your references. I appreciate your taking time to write.

Barry

 

[HerbertR]

Would be interesting how all the real brass capsule manufacture companies determine the resonance frequency of the capsule halves and calculate the correct capsule membrane tension for covering . The process would be really interesting. Also as mentioned - the difference of the covering processes of each brass capsule manufacturer would be interesting.

 

[jackinthebox]

Thanks for the info, Tim. I found out, that there's a lot of them.. especially "cheap" Chinese ones, which i'm trying to avoid.
I wouldn't know the difference between a $50 capsule and a $500 one... all wine tastes the same to me!
If I have to test each capsule, they all need to be tested in the same body.. that's the only accuracy I'll trust.
So that's not an option, that's why im asking around trying to hear peoples experiences.

I obviously want quality -that's why yours stood out, priced at $350. But I don't know anything about your built quality, nor the Chinese built quality.
I do know that stuff that are produced in China is cheaper because of labour.. but often they do take shortcuts and sell you low quality components/builds for the same low price as the good quality products.

I also know that labour in Denmark is ridiculously high -so I was wondering how much of that went into the final sales-price and how much "quality components" we're getting out of the final price... don't get me wrong, im sure your stuff is top notch

I found this Australian capsule at $430 from BeesNeez.


I meant affordability regarding one components, not the entire mic it self
Spending $100 on a shitty capsule -might as well spend $500 and get the best.
Obviously, I don't have +$15,000 to spend on one microphone.. I wouldn't be here if I had that kind of money.
Some say they're here for the fun of DIY, even when they can afford the real originals.. again, if I had that kind of money, I would hire someone from here and have them built the mic for me.

Tim is the best.
The end

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

I'm going to take a moment to ask a naive question: why are people so eager to build 250/251s? In my limited experience of being exposed to the sound (although never first hand), it has never been something I liked. I like the C12, C12A and C414EB, but never the 251. So please tell me what's the appeal? Thank you.

I've used a lot of vintage Neumanns, Schoeps, AKG etc but only one original 251E and it's the best microphone I've ever heard. Tight, balanced, smooth, airy, three dimensional with a perfect touch of midrange push and excitement.

I get the feeling in these discussions that people often refer to clones when sharing their opinions. They rarely reach the same quality or sometimes not even the same caracter of sound, not even the super expensive ones. I've used one expensive american made 250E clone that sounded nothing like the original. It was dull, congested and flat. Perhaps I was lucky with the original I've used because another problem is that a lot of vintage microphones don't sound as expected either.

I don't think people should be so eager with building 250/251 because the result will probably be very far from the original. A well built U67 can come very close.

 

[kingkorg]

I'm going to take a moment to ask a naive question: why are people so eager to build 250/251s? In my limited experience of being exposed to the sound (although never first hand), it has never been something I liked. I like the C12, C12A and C414EB, but never the 251. So please tell me what's the appeal? Thank you.

For me it's their off axis sound. I value certain mics by how they capture the room. I used to record drums a lot, and still occasionally do. Once cymbals get into every mic you have the differences become night and day.

However since you like c12 and c414 but not 251, i presume what you didn't like about it came most probably from the quality/variation of the capsule.

 

[cfanzalone]

It's sometimes scary to chime in here, but I agree with Tim...I would add Geddy Lee often uses a 414EB...often the voice quality alone would have one searching for the "perfect" mic (LOL) for the singer. No 2 singers have the same range/timbre/tamber. And I too like a FET mic into a really good tube mic pre....Tube mics into a tube pre can easily sound too "Tooby".
BTW, NOT as a sales rep for anyone (LOL), I have Tim's...the best; Ben's is a close second. I've tried Maiku (liked by me and others) and The Mic and Mod is really quite good for the money.

 

[Barry Hufker]

I appreciate everyone's remarks. I am always willing and eager to be educated. Based on the enthusiasm here about the 250/251, I'll definitely have to learn more.

 

[kingkorg]

I appreciate everyone's remarks. I am always willing and eager to be educated. Based on the enthusiasm here about the 250/251, I'll definitely have to learn more.

Ideally, you would have to have one capsule transplanted from a c12 you like into 251. This way you'd eliminate the capsule variation issue, and hear the difference caused by the circuit, headbasket and the body. Even then you'd have the issue of different value coupling cap and some resistors...

The bar behind c12 capsule has most certainly huge impact on the sound.

 

[cfanzalone]

Yep, KingKorg...Personally I love my 251(E) over my previous C12 (same capsule and subtle but noticeable differences in the circuit/headbasket/body), but aside from the mic one has to consider everything else in the signal chain to really compare...(whether it remains/may NOT remain the same).....SOOOO many variables to explore all aspects of mics and match with preamps and the rest....!!!
However, education and experimentation is the best way to go. Have fun Barry...because it IS fun!!!

 

[OPR]

In my own FR measurements. When it comes to C12 vs 251 head basket effect on the sound the Ck12 capsule. I've found that with the 251 basket there's
(roughly) an additional 1 db boost at 10k and the Q factor in that area becomes narrower than it is with the same capsule in an open weave c12 basket, which is about 1db lower at 10k with broader Q. There's also other stuff going on in the transient domain which make them sound different. ie. The open weave of the c12 basket allows for more detail as mechanically there's less in the way of the diaphragm so it gets to wiggle a bit more.

 

[kingkorg]

In my own FR measurements. When it comes to C12 vs 251 head basket effect on the sound the Ck12 capsule. I've found that with the 251 basket there's
(roughly) an additional 1 db boost at 10k and the Q factor in that area becomes narrower than it is with the same capsule in an open weave c12 basket, which is about 1db lower at 10k with broader Q. There's also other stuff going on in the transient domain which make them sound different. ie. The open weave of the c12 basket allows for more detail as mechanically there's less in the way of the diaphragm so it gets to wiggle a bit more.

Were you using the original type capsule mount system in c12 body? With vertical bar behind the capsule?

 

[TLRT]

Barry in the variations of mics using the CK12 capsule a good condition vintage Ela M 251 sounds sexier than a C12, C12a or 414EB.
I have owned all these mics and still own many of them. If I had to classify them I would describe the 251 as Whitney Houston's vocal sound, smooth and sexy but with presence, the C12 would be Peter Gabriel's airy, aggressive vocal sound, a properly working C12a can sound like a C12 but usually they sound a tad darker and the 414EB sounds like a solidstate mic compared to the others, more in your face and sounds good paired with a Neve or tube mic pre. Many times with the 414EB I find myself using it in super cardioid to add a bit more proximity effect "body".

Yes we just made a quick test, rebuilt C12 compare to C414comb, they are really not the same category(however the mids of the C414comb is very good), I would say that was the best c414 version with the brass ck12.(but the tube models are different league)

 

[OPR]

No, just an open weave C12 style basket. I'll put a lollipop stick behind the capsule and measure again tomorrow I suspect it would have more impact in figure 8 and omni.
That mount has always annoyed me! All that brilliant work on the capsule design and the guy in charge of engineering a mounting system comes up with that atrocity.

 

[OPR]

I also measured the 414 c12a type basket and it was more like the C12 with the broader Q at 10k but with a more subdued transient response like a 251

 

[VanGenz]

I'm talking about the Mic Parts, and the Advanced Audio 'CK12' -types. I find these tempting to try, but really have no idea. Is it just false economy? Will they sound much better/different than the cheap K67-style capsule they might replace? (Is the edge-terminated configuration more style than substance at this price point?)

$500 capsules are out of my budget right now. I could see spending maybe $200-250, but only if there was a remarkable difference in quality over the cheap ones.

Just looking for a bit of feedback from some of you who I'm sure have been through this process...

thanks
Dave

I build two C12 clones some years ago with Tim's capsules. These microphones wih a stereo LA2A clone are my main tools for recoding almost anything from soft vocals, acoustic guitars to drums. My last big production was even nominated to the Norwegian Grammy Awards (Spellemannsprisen) in 2022. We also got many great reviews in norwegian and swedish newspapers and magazines. Both for the performance, the production, the arrangements and the sound.

 

[CalavoBob]

I've used a lot of vintage Neumanns, Schoeps, AKG etc but only one original 251E and it's the best microphone I've ever heard. Tight, balanced, smooth, airy, three dimensional with a perfect touch of midrange push and excitement.

I get the feeling in these discussions that people often refer to clones when sharing their opinions. They rarely reach the same quality or sometimes not even the same caracter of sound, not even the super expensive ones. I've used one expensive american made 250E clone that sounded nothing like the original. It was dull, congested and flat. Perhaps I was lucky with the original I've used because another problem is that a lot of vintage microphones don't sound as expected either.

I don't think people should be so eager with building 250/251 because the result will probably be very far from the original. A well built U67 can come very close.

I agree with you Tomas. I used to work in a San Fran studio with a collection of original C12s, C12As, U67s, M49s, U47s, C414s, C37s, and yes ELA M251s. These are all terrific mics but to my ear (there were no spectrum measurements done) the 251s were the best. It actually depends on the source material, but the 251s provided an exciting realism particularly to the human voice. Lab measurements are nice but I really have to believe my ears after all is said and done.

 

[OPR]

I agree with you Tomas. I used to work in a San Fran studio with a collection of original C12s, C12As, U67s, M49s, U47s, C414s, C37s, and yes ELA M251s. These are all terrific mics but to my ear (there were no spectrum measurements done) the 251s were the best. It actually depends on the source material, but the 251s provided an exciting realism particularly to the human voice. Lab measurements are nice but I really have to believe my ears after all is said and done.

I agree, ears are the boss in the end. But
measurements are another way to view a sound in the frequency domain visually, which can give you a perspective into what's different about one mic and another (frequency wise). A combination of both is optimal

 

[Mikael-ange]

Barry in the variations of mics using the CK12 capsule a good condition vintage Ela M 251 sounds sexier than a C12, C12a or 414EB.
I have owned all these mics and still own many of them. If I had to classify them I would describe the 251 as Whitney Houston's vocal sound, smooth and sexy but with presence, the C12 would be Peter Gabriel's airy, aggressive vocal sound, a properly working C12a can sound like a C12 but usually they sound a tad darker and the 414EB sounds like a solidstate mic compared to the others, more in your face and sounds good paired with a Neve or tube mic pre. Many times with the 414EB I find myself using it in super cardioid to add a bit more proximity effect "body".

That a really interesting description to me for the m251 sound, because as far a I know (could be wrong and she used a m251 on a couple of song) Whitney mostly used C12. She also had custom made ck12 non tube mic for recording on the road.
An m251 sound would be Christina Aguilera since the stripped album (except 2 songs).
That just interesting to hear what sound match a mic from different people.

 

[Tim Campbell]

That a really interesting description to me for the m251 sound, because as far a I know (could be wrong and she used a m251 on a couple of song) Whitney mostly used C12. She also had custom made ck12 non tube mic for recording on the road.
An m251 sound would be Christina Aguilera since the stripped album (except 2 songs).
That just interesting to hear what sound match a mic from different people.

Mikael I heard about her being addicted to 251s from Klause Heyne. He made her a special 414 she could take with her that he said sounded as near to a 251 as he could possibly tweek it. I've never seen a photo of her sing into a C12 though Oceanway had a C12 that sounded closer to a 251. I have seen pics of her though singing into 414s, U67s, U47s so who knows. Christine Aguilera definitely. I believe she owns her own.

I own a vintage Ela M 251 and a FLEA 251. I don't know all Whitney's songs but the ones I know remind me of that sound.

 

[Mikael-ange]

Mikael I heard about her being addicted to 251s from Klause Heyne. He made her a special 414 she could take with her that he said sounded as near to a 251 as he could possibly tweek it. I've never seen a photo of her sing into a C12 though Oceanway had a C12 that sounded closer to a 251. I have seen pics of her though singing into 414s, U67s, U47s so who knows. Christine Aguilera definitely. I believe she owns her own.

I own a vintage Ela M 251 and a FLEA 251. I don't know all Whitney's songs but the ones I know remind me of that sound.

From my search and what I could find about it, David Foster rented a c12 from design fx for the whole album done at malibu (including I will always love you).
That mic was latter purchase by Aspen Pittman.
And if you watch the Allan Side interview on sunset sound podcast, the pic from Whitney session is her with a c12.
But she also used u87, c24, m251.
And she (or Bobby) owned almost every mic and piece you can imagine in pair (story told by Jaycen Joshua who made a list about what he wanted to purchase when the gear was for sale, and Rodney Jerkins purchased everything from JJ list for himself.).

I read Klaus post about that 414eb, but I don't think we can call it a 414 anymore when the only thing that remain original are capsule and mic body.

But anyway thanks for your expertise, that apreciated