Best of the 'affordable' CK12-type capsules?

[GeorgeToledo]

Would you say, that the ck12 capsule from Tim Campell is the best sounding quality out there?
if looking pass the whole "affordability" nonsense, -just best ck12 capsule money can buy!

If affordability isn’t an issue just buy a real CK12. It’s a matter of opinion but I don’t think anything is comparable to the real thing, except for in the ways it isn’t the real thing.

I haven’t seen *too* much discussion with these capsules with regard to which may be better suited for an AKG 414 EB style mic. I assume the flatter the better when it comes to 414 voicing, but perhaps I’m wrong. Any opinions?

Forgive me, @Tim Campbell but I have yet to get a clear and concise answer from anyone regarding the availability of your capsules, and I figure it’s best coming straight from the horses mouth. Are your capsules actually available for purchase to the common DIY’er, or are you only supplying commercial operations at this point?

The capsules in CK12’d 414 had some top end lift. That’s part of why when they went to the one right after, it was so obviously objectionable.

 

[CalavoBob]

I just finished a repair of a AKG C12 VR for a fellow that needed the original diaphragm replaced. He had me wire in a Peluso CEK-12 capsule and the result really sounded great. Peluso sells it for $304 and says it has a 6 micron gold layer over dual mylar membranes Although the AKG C12 VR circuit board layout (on page 3) only shows one wire from the backplate, the schematic (on page 4) shows two separate backplate wires going to different locations. This capsule had two separate backplate wires, but wiring them like the schematic didn't achieve the correct patterns. I connected the front backplate to the top of R6 (200 Mohm) and the rear backplate to C4 (1 nF) which goes to the pin 2 grid of the 6072 tube. This is what the schematic shows, but the patterns were very wrong. The secret was a wire shown on the page 4 circuit board layout (but not shown on the schematic) that must be connected between the two backplates. Since they're supposed to be connected together it actually doesn't make any difference which backplate you attach to the points on the schematic. I connected the front diaphram to ground which is also shown going to C9 (10 nF) on the schematic. I connected the rear diaphram to the C9 (10 nF), R5 (33 Mohm) junction as usual. This mic did not have the 3 Gohm R14 on the circuit board, and I did not install one. Again, the result was a really good C12 style sound with great pattern definition. I see Peluso also recommends this capsule for ELA M 251 builds too. They've actually got a lot of mic parts listed on their website. Some good looking shock mounts.

 

[kingkorg]

I just finished a repair of a AKG C12 VR for a fellow that needed the original diaphragm replaced. He had me wire in a Peluso CEK-12 capsule and the result really sounded great. Peluso sells it for $304 and says it has a 6 micron gold layer over dual mylar membranes Although the AKG C12 VR circuit board layout (on page 3) only shows one wire from the backplate, the schematic (on page 4) shows two separate backplate wires going to different locations. This capsule had two separate backplate wires, but wiring them like the schematic didn't achieve the correct patterns. I connected the front backplate to the top of R6 (200 Mohm) and the rear backplate to C4 (1 nF) which goes to the pin 2 grid of the 6072 tube. This is what the schematic shows, but the patterns were very wrong. The secret was a wire shown on the page 4 circuit board layout (but not shown on the schematic) that must be connected between the two backplates. Since they're supposed to be connected together it actually doesn't make any difference which backplate you attach to the points on the schematic. I connected the front diaphram to ground which is also shown going to C9 (10 nF) on the schematic. I connected the rear diaphram to the C9 (10 nF), R5 (33 Mohm) junction as usual. This mic did not have the 3 Gohm R14 on the circuit board, and I did not install one. Again, the result was a really good C12 style sound with great pattern definition. I see Peluso also recommends this capsule for ELA M 251 builds too. They've actually got a lot of mic parts listed on their website. Some good looking shock mounts.

Peluso Cek12 is 30$ chinese capsule design. It might sound great but the way it forms F8 and omni has nothing to do with how multichambered true CK12 or even stock VR capsule does it. Not even in cardioid.

Peluso's capsule will have for example huge midrange bump in F8 and HF roll-off compared to cardioid. This won't happen with stock VR capsule or CK12. No claim ever will be enough to go against laws of thermodynamics and the fact Peluso's capsule lacks two HUGE chambers in the design.

Who ever doesn't believe me read the CK12 patent documents and see why they went for multi chambered design, look at the graphs, and ask yourself how a small workshop whom does chinese rebrands came up with a way to get the same result with well known, inexpensive, cut corner capsule design available at any corner for 30$. Akg spent decades to replicate the original results using simpler design and failed. Just like all others that have attempted.

 

[LevinGuitar]

Looking at the C12VR schematic I wonder how close would be using this capsule (or any you like more) in a stock chinese mic like Apex 460/Alctron HST11a/Tbone sct2000 with a 12AY7 tube, and no more mods. Should be fun, cheap and easy to try

 

[HerbertR]

Looking at the C12VR schematic I wonder how close would be using this capsule (or any you like more) in a stock chinese mic like Apex 460/Alctron HST11a/Tbone sct2000 with a 12AY7 tube, and no more mods. Should be fun, cheap and easy to try

I'm currently building/testing a Siemens SM204 / AKG C23 style build with a new AKG CR12 VR replacement capsule and Moby's huge V2545 transformer and a NOS GE6072A 5S Mica tube. Some minor issues need to be resolved during construction - but the capsule sounds really good. And yes - as Kingkorg said - these capsule sounds in my opinion not like a C12 brass clone, I can say that, compared to Beesneez capsules.. The original low cathode cap in the C23 circuit with 5nF values doesn't sound good with the C12VR capsule either. There isn't that familiar thing about emphasizing the upper mids. Thin and duller. For this setup I use a classic value like 10uF-100uF, then I got a fat, hot-sounding tube microphone with a good, huge bass band. But it sounds like an other good capsule, but not like a Brass, agree 100%..

 

[LevinGuitar]

I prefer original C12 bias, at least with theese valves. A good pentode could help to compensate low midrange if needed.
With original ck12, the tube is less important maybe, but with "thinner"? capsules (I haven't tried them yet) I would use a EF86 and a big trafo.

Btw, do you also replicate the second triode use for the +10db? Is this feature really needed and works well (with the same trafo)?

 

[HerbertR]

I prefer original C12 bias, at least with theese valves. A good pentode could help to compensate low midrange with the capsule if needed.
With original ck12, the tube is less important maybe, but with "thinner"? capsules (I haven't tried them yet) I would use EF86 and a big trafo.

Btw, do you also replicante the second triode use for the +10db? Is this feature really needed and works well (with the same trafo)?

No, the second triode is shorted to ground in my setup according to the original schematic and uses the values from that schematic - except the cathode cap value. In my opinion, reducing the block cap from 0.47uF to 0.39uF or 220nF also sounds interesting in order to get “low rumble” under control better. A matter of taste

 

[HerbertR]

I prefer original C12 bias, at least with theese valves. A good pentode could help to compensate low midrange if needed.
With original ck12, the tube is less important maybe, but with "thinner"? capsules (I haven't tried them yet) I would use a EF86 and a big trafo.

Btw, do you also replicate the second triode use for the +10db? Is this feature really needed and works well (with the same trafo)?

Btw do you have a schematic for using the second triode? Sounds very interesting...

 

[LevinGuitar]

Up in this thread, the C12VR, reply #22.
I don't think it could be a interesting/useful feature.

Btw, does the output phase inverts with the +10db boost switched on?

 

[MiamiBoy]

Really it is a matter of taste. All the major CK12 manufacturers capsules sound slightly different based on our particular favorite example of CK12. Read a bit and maybe listen to some sound files to see which one suits you.

Thanks for the info, Tim. I found out, that there's a lot of them.. especially "cheap" Chinese ones, which i'm trying to avoid.
I wouldn't know the difference between a $50 capsule and a $500 one... all wine tastes the same to me!
If I have to test each capsule, they all need to be tested in the same body.. that's the only accuracy I'll trust.
So that's not an option, that's why im asking around trying to hear peoples experiences.

I obviously want quality -that's why yours stood out, priced at $350. But I don't know anything about your built quality, nor the Chinese built quality.
I do know that stuff that are produced in China is cheaper because of labour.. but often they do take shortcuts and sell you low quality components/builds for the same low price as the good quality products.

I also know that labour in Denmark is ridiculously high -so I was wondering how much of that went into the final sales-price and how much "quality components" we're getting out of the final price... don't get me wrong, im sure your stuff is top notch

I found this Australian capsule at $430 from BeesNeez.

If affordability isn’t an issue just buy a real CK12. It’s a matter of opinion but I don’t think anything is comparable to the real thing, except for in the ways it isn’t the real thing.

I meant affordability regarding one components, not the entire mic it self
Spending $100 on a shitty capsule -might as well spend $500 and get the best.
Obviously, I don't have +$15,000 to spend on one microphone.. I wouldn't be here if I had that kind of money.
Some say they're here for the fun of DIY, even when they can afford the real originals.. again, if I had that kind of money, I would hire someone from here and have them built the mic for me.

 

[Tim Campbell]

I obviously want quality -that's why yours stood out, priced at $350. But I don't know anything about your built quality, nor the Chinese built quality.

I do know that stuff that are produced in China is cheaper because of labour.. but often they do take shortcuts and sell you low quality components/builds for the same low price as the good quality products.

I also know that labour in Denmark is ridiculously high -so I was wondering how much of that went into the final sales-price and how much "quality components" we're getting out of the final price... don't get me wrong, im sure your stuff is top notch

I found this Australian capsule at $430 from BeesNeez.

Funny just recently I was accused by some members of using this forum to sell my product so I feel my hands are kind of tied to give explicit answers to your questions beyond the facts that I take brass, acrylic and NOS AKG mylar and build my capsules from scratch. I don't know what you mean by quality components.
I have built many thousands of capsules so there are reviews and examples out there for anyone that's curious enough.

 

[MiamiBoy]

Yeah, gotta watch out what you say online if you don't wanna get attacked.
I do appreciate you trying to explain to us, as carefully as possible without getting into trouble.

Obviously I didn't consider what the materials used in a capsule was.
I see that the raw material you're using is pretty straight forward. Those are the "quality" components I was talking about.

 

[McIrish]

MiamiBoy,
Often what is marketed as a CK12 is actually an edge terminated K67 capsule. The K67 is much easier to manufacture and I think it "fools" a lot of people into thinking they got a CK12. From my limited knowledge, a CK12 can be in a flat circuit. The K67 is brighter and harsh when used in a flat circuit. But, a K67 in something like a U67, is a wonderful sounding mic. A U67 is NOT a flat circuit. There is some EQ happening in the mic with a winding from the transformer feeding back to create the correct frequency response. So, if the capsule claims to be a CK12 and is $30, you're not getting a CK12. I don't think even the Chinese factories can make them that inexpensively.
Hope this helps

 

[OneRoomStudio]

MiamiBoy,
Often what is marketed as a CK12 is actually an edge terminated K67 capsule. The K67 is much easier to manufacture and I think it "fools" a lot of people into thinking they got a CK12. From my limited knowledge, a CK12 can be in a flat circuit. The K67 is brighter and harsh when used in a flat circuit. But, a K67 in something like a U67, is a wonderful sounding mic. A U67 is NOT a flat circuit. There is some EQ happening in the mic with a winding from the transformer feeding back to create the correct frequency response. So, if the capsule claims to be a CK12 and is $30, you're not getting a CK12. I don't think even the Chinese factories can make them that inexpensively.
Hope this helps

This is an important point. If you want a "real" CK12, there are very few options. I started a thread about this a little while back: CK12s in 2023

 

[soliloqueen]

I may also make one eventually, but it will be here in my workshop, by hand, and in small volumes. I don't have it in me to mass-produce CK12s as I will soon be busy on microphones.

 

[MiamiBoy]

MiamiBoy,
Often what is marketed as a CK12 is actually an edge terminated K67 capsule. The K67 is much easier to manufacture and I think it "fools" a lot of people into thinking they got a CK12. Hope this helps

I've read that somewhere, yea. I won't go after the cheaper ones.
When you say flat, do you mean physically flat capsule or flat as in a "EQ curve" flat?

Here's a video of how Soyuz makes their K67 capsule in Russia

 

[paulcheeba]

The Beesneez is excellent and compares so close to the great capsule in the C12a / 251 I have so many pairs of this and they are all excellent. The BC12a mic sounds exactly like the real thing it’s shocking. You can also by Haun via Voxorama but it’s more expensive and not as close.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Just use the search funtion in this forum. There are many years worth of reviews and sound files. This has been a topic here for the almost 20 years this forum has been running

 

[Barry Hufker]

I'm going to take a moment to ask a naive question: why are people so eager to build 250/251s? In my limited experience of being exposed to the sound (although never first hand), it has never been something I liked. I like the C12, C12A and C414EB, but never the 251. So please tell me what's the appeal? Thank you.

 

[Tim Campbell]

I'm going to take a moment to ask a naive question: why are people so eager to build 250/251s? In my limited experience of being exposed to the sound (although never first hand), it has never been something I liked. I like the C12, C12A and C414EB, but never the 251. So please tell me what's the appeal? Thank you.

Barry in the variations of mics using the CK12 capsule a good condition vintage Ela M 251 sounds sexier than a C12, C12a or 414EB.
I have owned all these mics and still own many of them. If I had to classify them I would describe the 251 as Whitney Houston's vocal sound, smooth and sexy but with presence, the C12 would be Peter Gabriel's airy, aggressive vocal sound, a properly working C12a can sound like a C12 but usually they sound a tad darker and the 414EB sounds like a solidstate mic compared to the others, more in your face and sounds good paired with a Neve or tube mic pre. Many times with the 414EB I find myself using it in super cardioid to add a bit more proximity effect "body".