Planning my BA-6A

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abbey road d enfer said:
letterbeacon said:
It looks like Edcor might be a good call.  This looks like it might be the closest to what I want:

http://www.edcorusa.com/products/602-xpwr012_240.aspx - 350vac @ 100mA, 6.3vac @ 2A, 5v @ 2A.

I'd still need another transformer for the DC heaters, but that was the plan anyway.  Does this look about right?

Edit - the shipping costs more than the transformer - but still works out cheaper than a Hammond!  Is there a quality difference between a Hammond and an Edcor do you think?
2x175Vac is definitely not enough.
I though I was after a transformer with 320vac rms @100ma on the secondary. Could you explain why the transformer I selected is too low or point me in the direction where I can learn? I really want to understand this but it's proving difficult!
 
Some on the go commentary from me as usual; it's probable that it's 315-0-315, not 315 total.  For example the SA-39 uses a Triad R-11, 350-0-350 I recall.  That ends up with about 440-460 DC on the 1st filter cap, and also uses a choke, so needs 500 or 600 volt caps for filters. 
 
emrr said:
Some on the go commentary from me as usual; it's probable that it's 315-0-315, not 315 total.  For example the SA-39 uses a Triad R-11, 350-0-350 I recall.  That ends up with about 440-460 DC on the 1st filter cap, and also uses a choke, so needs 500 or 600 volt caps for filters.

I'm just looking at the BOM in the manual and it specifies 450v caps in the PS filter section though, which indicates that the DC after rectification would be much less than that.

I don't understand why a PT with 350v CT @ 100mA isn't the right choice if the schematic calls for 320 rms @ 100mA.  If you guys are saying it's not then it must be the wrong choice, but I don't understand why it's not.  I'm keen to learn, but I haven't been able to find any info online that helps me.
 
That Edcor is a 175-0-175 VAC (aka 350 VAC center-tapped).  What you are seeking is a 320-0-320 VAC (aka 640 VAC center-tapped).  Refer to the RCA power supply pages I posted a few messages back, where they were using a 300-0-300 xfmr and getting in the low 300's VDC out under load.

I'll poke around at the Edcor site to see what looks plausible.  I also see some candidates here (but all lack a 5 VAC winding):

http://www.antekinc.com/gview.php?d[]=0

I'll report back later this evening....

EDIT:

These Anteks look useful:

http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=72

http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=0

http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=673

Some Edcor possibilities:

http://www.edcorusa.com/category/72-xpwrseries.aspx?secondary%28output%29highvoltage=341


Best,

Bri
 
Thanks very much for that Brian, it's much appreciated!

These two possibilities look good to me:

Possibility one: http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=673
300v @ .17A
300v @ .17A
6.3v @ 3A
6.3v @ 3A

I could wire the 300v windings in series to give me 600v for the rectifier tube, put .68r dropping resistors across one of the 6.3v windings for the rectifier heaters and use one side of the remaining 6.3v to feed 3.15v to the balance circuit.  I'd have to make artificial centre taps for the 6.3v because there are no real ones on the transformer.

Possibility two: http://www.edcorusa.com/products/606-xpwr014_120-240.aspx
600v CT (300-0-300) @ 75mA
6.3v CT @ 3A
5v CT @ 2A

As I understand it, the voltage would be slightly lower that 600v because I'll be drawing around 100mA.  Is that correct?  That should still be enough for the BA-6 though, right?

Thank you very much!
 
letterbeacon said:
Possibility two: http://www.edcorusa.com/products/606-xpwr014_120-240.aspx
600v CT (300-0-300) @ 75mA
6.3v CT @ 3A
5v CT @ 2A

As I understand it, the voltage would be slightly lower that 600v because I'll be drawing around 100mA.  Is that correct? 
This xfmr is capable of delivering 300V @75mA + 300V @75mA, which is not so much different than 300V at 150mA. Accounting for a 1.414 factor, that should be good for about 106 mA DC.
 
abbey road d enfer said:
letterbeacon said:
Possibility two: http://www.edcorusa.com/products/606-xpwr014_120-240.aspx
600v CT (300-0-300) @ 75mA
6.3v CT @ 3A
5v CT @ 2A

As I understand it, the voltage would be slightly lower that 600v because I'll be drawing around 100mA.  Is that correct? 
This xfmr is capable of delivering 300V @75mA + 300V @75mA, which is not so much different than 300V at 150mA. Accounting for a 1.414 factor, that should be good for about 106 mA DC.

And that's exactly what I need, right?
 
Since there are some unknowns here, so I would opt for higher current than 75 mA to ensure the xfmr runs cool.  Too bad we don't have a "real" BA-6A available to take some measurements.

Best,

Bri
 
OK so let us blueprint the original transformer so we have an anchor point,

Pri: 2 Amp Fuse - Taps for main variations:

Pins 1-2>105 VAC
Pins 1-3>115 VAC
Pins 1-4>125 VAC

Sec:

Pins 5-6-7>  320 VAC  from center tap (6) to either leg (5 or 7)
(640 VAC Leg to Leg 5-7, be careful when measuring!)
about 160 ma current needed at 320 VAC

Pins 8-9> 13.3 VAC @ 0.6 Amps    Y+ and Y->feeds 6SK7 with filtered D.C.
Pins 10-11> 6.3 VAC @ 1.2 Amps    Z-Z>feeds Meter pilot lamps
Pins 12-13> 6.3 VAC @ 1.8 Amps    X-X>feeds 6J7, 6H6 and 6V6 tubes
Pins 14-15> 5 VAC @ 2 Amps        feeds 5R4-GY rectifier tube pins 2 and 8

does that look right?

clever, they put a hum balance pot on the meter lamps, cancels 6.3 vac in the chassis but at a lower power than the heaters, less wattage on the pot,

only thing missing is B+ current, this can be estimated from the circuit,

6V6 worst case - 92 ma for both tubes
6Sk7 worst case 20 ma for both tubes
6J7 worst case  10 ma for both tubes
OD3 worst case - 40 ma for one tube

so 92+20+10+40 = about 160 ma worst case.

what about this, was it considered already?

P-T372FX

Transformer - Hammond, Power, 300-0-300 V, 150 mA

    Universal Primary - 100, 110, 120, 200, 220, 240 VAC 50/60 Hz.
    High voltage secondary designed for full wave center tapped use.
    50 VAC bias tap from high voltage secondary C.T.
    Black epoxy painted to match our P-T1650 series of output transformers .
    Class A insulation (105 degrees C).
    Hi-Pot test of 2,000 V RMS.
    Windings are concentric wound for low stray field and low noise

Secondary: 300-0-300 V, 150 mA
Filament winding 1 : 5 VCT, 3 A
Filament winding 2 : 6.3 VCT, 5 A
Mounting centers: 2.5" x 2.94" vertical mount
Weight: 6.2 lbs.


$109.45  from

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
 
The best solution would be to have a PT which outputs 320VAC RMS (which I calculate is 226-0-226VAC peak to peak) but unfortunately I'm having a hard time finding one of these.  The nearest is a Hammond which is 250-0-250 but that's still 50v over which would require a dropping resistor.


This one is a little low on HT but hefty on filament - you could look at reducing the dropping resistor sizes and therefore overall PS Z. 


http://www.edcorusa.com/category/37-xpwrseries.aspx?secondary(output)highvoltage=372


For some reason Edcors 450ish PTs have 12V filaments and other odd bias taps.  They should be able to wind exactly what you need as custom job.

This one would run very cool with plenty to spare - 12SK7/SJ7s/12H6s? (They're all available)  Run separate filament for 6V6s

http://www.edcorusa.com/category/37-xpwrseries.aspx?secondary(output)highvoltage=447

 
ok, this is how i would calculate the rms voltage needed for the B+,

take the required DC plate voltage add it to the rectifier drop.

in this case, we are using the 5R4-GY:

5R4-GY Ratings
Vh Ih VaMax IkMax Notes
5 2.0 PIV=2800V 650 Tube drop = 67V @ 250mA DC

so let us make an example for 300 volts DC on the 6V6  plates,

300 + 67 = 367 VDC.
367/1.2=306 VAC  RMS

maybe the choke uses some voltage, 10 volts would be the worst,
so figure 306 + 10 = 316 VAC, so order a 320 VAC transformer at your rated current, figure out your heater requirements and there you go.

now the 67 volts is for 250 ma load current, so it will be lower for 100 ma load, maybe half the drop you get at 250 ma.

if you get a tapped primary, you can raise or lower the final B+ by using different taps.
 
Egads  I had composed an elaborate reply which was LOST because I attached a "too big" attachment.

Grrr

Link to the attachment, and I'll try to recall my thoughts in a week or two...lol.

www.brianroth.com/library/rca-ba6a-docs.pdf

Bri

 
Thanks very much lassoharp and CJ for your extremely informative replies, and Brian - it's gutting when that happens, although I would really like to know what you had written!

I think one area in which I'm falling down is RMS and peak.  According to this website:

The root-mean-square value of a sine wave of current is 70.7% of the peak value.

So, to convert peak value to rms value, multiply by  0.707

To convert rms value to peak value, divide by 0.707

So if I'm looking for a transformer with a 320Vac secondary, as CJ points out, I need to do the following calculation: 320 / 0.707 = 452.66v peak.  So therefore I'm looking for a transformer which is 452-0-452 @ 160mA. Is that correct?  It somehow doesn't seem right.
 
Don't forget to make use of the RCA tube manual's rectifier data chart.  This will give you the starting  voltage at the rectifier's output for a given load at any given HT voltage.  From there it's pretty straightforward ohm's law.  Treat choke as simple resistor using the DCR figure.
 
I had jotted down various B+ calculations, etc...so all is not lost!  Just a few hours of "prose" as I wandered back and forth between the laundry room (with 2 weeks-worth of dirty jeans and Polo shirts)...and this infernal <g> Dell laptop!

Dirty laundry?  Yeah....it has been an unusually busy November/December for me, with two "studio moves" beginning back just before Thanksgiving, and working on a client's "new" mobile truck which houses a Neve Capricorn digital desk.

I will post my mental debris in small chunks this weekend, as I try to recall the details from the (lost!) elaborate posting that this board tossed....

I'll
 
I don't understand why a PT with 350v CT @ 100mA isn't the right choice if the schematic calls for 320 rms @ 100mA.  If you guys are saying it's not then it must be the wrong choice, but I don't understand why it's not.  I'm keen to learn, but I haven't been able to find any info online that helps me.

Maybe mixing up terminology.  350CT = 350/2 = 175-0-175 = too low to give you 320V @ 100ma (assuming full wave rectification).

700V CT = 350-0-350 = adequate to get 320V @ 100ma.

 
Letterbeacon,

Sorry to see you having so much trouble sorting the PT.

My BA-6A drew about 120mA if that helps.

You need to consult the Rectifier tube charts to find the voltage drop across the tube at your current, this will help you work backwards to the best PT  voltage.  Bear in mind that some tubes need a minimum series resistance on the plates and this will increase the drop too.  My advice is to ere on the high side, you can always lose some volts with some Al clad resistors.

happy new year
DaveP
 
letterbacon, you almost have it.

all the transformer companies rate their transformers using RMS volts.
and all schematics use RMS volts unless otherwise noted.

so if the RCA schematic says 320 VAC, you tell the transformer guy you want 320 VAC and he will automatically know that you are talkin RMS.

now if the spec for the center tapped xfmr is 300-0-300 VAC, you use 300 volts in your B+ calculations, as the dual rectifier circuit cuts the total voltage of the power transformer in half. one half of the sine wave is flipped over so that you are filtering 2 positive halves of a sine wave. This pulsating DC now has a frequency of 120 hz, which is twice as easy to filter as 60 hz.

a xfmr catalog will also use RMS volts.

the only time you need to worry about peak voltage is when you are thinking about the voltage rating on the caps.

if for some reason the circuit becomes unloaded, maybe somebody turns it on with the regulator, amp and power tubes missing, then the filter caps will charge to peak value, which is rms/.707 as you mentioned.
most folks like to use 1.414 as a multiplier for getting peak value, but either way should give the same answer.

so lets do another example.

lets say you go through your transformer box, and you find a power transformer that puts out 270 VAC on the secondary, from center tap to either leg.
the label was gone but that's what your voltmeter said.
your voltmeter measures RMS volts, unless you are using a scope, which will show the wave, peak to peak.

What would be your B+ voltage after the full wave rectifier and filtering with a cap-choke-cap pi filter?

well, 270 VAC * 1.414 = 382 volts.

so you want the filter caps to be rated at 450 volts for long life and safety.

now the B+ voltage will come down when you load the power supply.

so you do not multiply the RMS volts of the transformer by 1.414,

a typical figure that allows for the DCR of the transformer, the drop across the rectifier tube and the drop across the choke would be 1.2

so multiply your RMS volts by 1.2 and you will have a good guess at your final B+ voltage,

in this example, 270 VAC secondary winding * 1.2 = about 320 volts DC after the choke.

check the drop on the rectifier you are using, there is quite a difference between the various types,

direct and indirectly heated cathodes is one of the reasons.

now the center tapped power supply is mostly found in tube amps, so you have to watch out on your ratings as far as are we talking from center tap to outer legs, or are we talking from leg to leg.

you do not want to end up with a transformer that only has 1/2 the volts you need.

transistor circuits usually use the full wave bridge in the power supply, sometimes they use a bi-polar supply which will then use a center tap,
the single supply is easier to buy a transformer for, since they only have 2 wires on the secondary. so there is less confusion when buying the transformer.

now you do not have the big voltage drop across the rectifier tube as they usually use solid state diodes in the transistor stuff.

so the DC voltage you see from an AC secondary for a transistor supply might be closer to 1.3 times the RMS value of the secondary.

so if you need 24 VDC for a Neve or something, you divide 24/1.3=18.5 VAC.

so you order an 18 volt xfmr and the caps bump it up to 24 VDC.

lots of times the transistor stuff does not use a choke in the power supply, only a resistor, but there will still be a voltage drop across either a choke, or a resistor, probably less across the choke circuit, which is better. resistors are much cheaper than chokes, and much smaller, but you pay a price wth more ripple voltage and less regulation.

 
DaveP said:
Sorry to see you having so much trouble sorting the PT.

Not at all!  It's a great opportunity for me to learn more about power transformers -I'm learning a great deal!


CJ - thank you very much for your explanation, I think it's all becoming much much clearer now.  I'll be printing out your post for future reference.

So how about this transformer here: http://www.edcorusa.com/products/661-xpwr066_240.aspx
300-0-300Vac CT @ 200mA
6.3Vac CT @ 4A
5Vac @ 3A

DaveP mentions his DIY BA-6A draws 120mA, so this is slight overkill but I guess it's better to have more available and use a dropping resistor than not have enough current or voltage.

So I think 300v @ 200mA works out to 450v @ 125mA.

CJ mentions below that the 5R4GY rectifier tube drops 67v @ 250mA.  So would that be a 34v drop @ 125mA?

If so, that gives me 450v - 34v = 416v after the tube rectifier.

The choke I'm planning on using has the following specs: 7H, 150mA, 100DCr, 500Vdc. So that's a further voltage drop of 12.5v @ 120mA giving me 403.5vdc as the B+.  I need to get this down to 285Vdc, by dropping 118.5v.

118V / .125A = 948r @ 15W. So I'll use a 1k 25W resistor heatsinked to the case.

How does that sound?
 

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