Trump says he would like to 'hit' DNC speakers who disparaged him

[mattiasNYC]

Since somebody mentioned Chicago, and I haven't ranted about the violence in Chicago for a couple weeks, here is the July report.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-weekend-shootings-chicago-violence-20160801-story.html

Deadliest July in Chicago for last 10 years. Homicides year to date 400, All last year was 490.

Note: Gun laws are already restrictive there.

JR

And would it help if gun laws were restrictive everywhere?

 

[Andy Peters]

Since somebody mentioned Chicago, and I haven't ranted about the violence in Chicago for a couple weeks, here is the July report.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-weekend-shootings-chicago-violence-20160801-story.html

Deadliest July in Chicago for last 10 years. Homicides year to date 400, All last year was 490.

Note: Gun laws are already restrictive there.

JR

And would it help if gun laws were restrictive everywhere?

Especially in the open-air gun bazaar of neighboring Indiana, whose governor just happens to be Trump's running mate.

-a

 

[JohnRoberts]

Since somebody mentioned Chicago, and I haven't ranted about the violence in Chicago for a couple weeks, here is the July report.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-weekend-shootings-chicago-violence-20160801-story.html

Deadliest July in Chicago for last 10 years. Homicides year to date 400, All last year was 490.

Note: Gun laws are already restrictive there.

JR

And would it help if gun laws were restrictive everywhere?

That is the "easy" political answer some embrace.  Since i don't see that kind of gun violence in Hickory, MS, perhaps there is something about Chicago that needs attention?  It's not all of Chicago either just some neighborhoods where violent crime is frequent and increasing. I will avoid too simple answers like it's just gang or drug related, but this isn't rocket science.

In fact some modern police departments are starting to use data mining and statistical methods to predict crime likelihood to assist deploying limited security forces.  I do not know where Chicago is about this (I hear Bratton may be available to consult once he retires from NYC). 

I just don't understand why people think this increasing level of violence is tolerable and that more gun restrictions***  are the primary solution to invest energy into.

JR

**** Of course it would be useful to crack down on straw man gun purchases in nearby states that are supplying the bad actors in Chicago with guns. I believe that is already illegal too...

PS: It's hard to get good information about Chicago police using google, since the top answers for almost every question I ask involve numerous anti-police stories. Must suck to be them.

 

[Gold]

Most of the illegal guns in NYC come right up I95 from Virginia and North Carolina. Very difficult to stop. People packed together in cities is a different dynamic than small town or country living.

 

[mattiasNYC]

And would it help if gun laws were restrictive everywhere?

That is the "easy" political answer some embrace.  Since i don't see that kind of gun violence in Hickory, MS, perhaps there is something about Chicago that needs attention?  It's not all of Chicago either just some neighborhoods where violent crime is frequent and increasing. I will avoid too simple answers like it's just gang or drug related, but this isn't rocket science.

True. It's not rocket science. If it's a problem that guns are used in crime then to reduce gun crime you reduce gun ownership. See? Not rocket science.

If residents of Chicago get around their restrictions by getting guns from outside of the state then again - not rocket science - it'd make sense to restrict guns the same way outside of Chicago.

I just don't understand why people think this increasing level of violence is tolerable and that more gun restrictions***  are the primary solution to invest energy into.

I don't understand why people think this increasing level of gun violence is tolerable in the name of getting to keep their guns.

**** Of course it would be useful to crack down on straw man gun purchases in nearby states that are supplying the bad actors in Chicago with guns. I believe that is already illegal too...

But it just shows how weak the argument is that it isn't legal guns that are the problem. A straw purchase of a gun may be illegal, but the initial purchase is not. To prevent the gun from becoming a straw-purchased gun don't sell it legally in the first place.

 

[pucho812]

Ah but the initial purchase requires a back ground check.  Even the whole gun show loop hole is  at best misinformation. Any reputable dealer at a gun show requires you do the background check, waiting period and so on.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Ah but the initial purchase requires a back ground check.  Even the whole gun show loop hole is  at best misinformation. Any reputable dealer at a gun show requires you do the background check, waiting period and so on.

That doesn't change anything I said with regards to straw purchases though.

The thing is that you can't just look at criminals as their own 'social bubble', completely disconnected from the rest of the country. The NRA makes a big deal out of saying that criminals when asked said they got their guns not from gun shows or from first-hand store purchases, all legal, but from connections in their social network. Well, that's only really relevant if we assume that they also manufacture the guns themselves, in that same network - i.e. it's a bubble they live in.

But if we look at them as being a bubble of criminals that move guns around between them but do NOT manufacture guns themselves then we have to accept that the guns ultimately comes from outside of that bubble. And since the argument then is that those guns used in crimes don't come from legal first-hand purchases it's fair to assume that it's mostly from straw purchases and the like. From what I can tell statistics support that.

So, again, people buy weapons legally complete with background checks and whatever, or not, but still legally, but eventually those weapons end up in the "bubbles" containing criminal elements. If you want to starve the bubble of guns you therefore have to target the outside of the bubble.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am interested in more practical remedies for all the killings in Chicago. I am pretty sure there are no easy answers available.

One strategy to get guns off the street was to make criminals fearful that they might get caught by random searches. If that fear makes them leave their gun at home, they won't shoot anybody that day.

Individuals caught supplying guns illegally into this area need to be held responsible for the deaths those guns cause. Legally gun manufacturers are not held culpable for making guns but anyone knowingly selling them to people who are expected to use them for mayhem should be held accountable.

Blanketing the area with police presence should have a damping effect on violence, this is complicated by attacks against police officers leading them to double up patrols for their own safety.  I believe Chicago police are already trying this, but the number this year continue to climb. Between 2007 and 2015 Chicago police recovered 87,000 firearms. During that same time period Chicago police were victims of assault or battery over 13,000 times.  http://www.bettergov.org/news/chicago-police-routinely-face-attacks

A review of crime statistics since the public release of the McDonald shooting video (shot by police) reveals that Chicago has their own local "Ferguson effect" where rank and file police have taken a less proactive approach to policing in response to anti-police sentiment. The arrest rate for non-fatal shootings dropped 69% and homicide arrest rate dropped 48% after the video. http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/analysis-of-crime-data-links-gun-violence-spike-in-chicago-to-anti-police-protests/

That genie (McDonald video) is out of the bottle and can't be put back in, but there are negative consequences and real outcomes related to anti-police rhetoric and messaging.  Bad police officers need to be punished but lets not throw out the baby with the bath water by blaming all police. This requires a major attitude adjustment from political leaders, and us.

Good luck to them and us. Chicago tried to win the Olympics that are now happening in Rio.    Probably cleaner conditions for open water swimmers in Chicago.

JR

 

[kambo]

Between 2007 and 2015 Chicago police recovered 87,000 firearms.

that number is crazy 
and there must be at least triple of that number out there...

Bad police officers need to be punished but lets not throw out the baby with the bath water by blaming all police. This requires a major attitude adjustment from political leaders, and us.

1+
but
Police officers are only getting punished for their internal affairs...
not for extreme use of force, or shooting a person with no arm nor similar actions...
(punishment is very rare in those cases)

i am so curious what will happen to this case :
Unarmed Florida man with hands up shot by police while calming autistic patient, Miami
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHBUdenbT9w

edit: sometimes Police Department loses the lawsuits , but i never get to hear what happens to actual Police Officer who caused the lawsuit!

 

[JohnRoberts]

Between 2007 and 2015 Chicago police recovered 87,000 firearms.

that number is crazy 
and there must be at least triple of that number out there...

Bad police officers need to be punished but lets not throw out the baby with the bath water by blaming all police. This requires a major attitude adjustment from political leaders, and us.

1+
but
Police officers are only getting punished for their internal affairs...
not for extreme use of force, or shooting a person with no arm nor similar actions...
(punishment is very rare in those cases)

i am so curious what will happen to this case :
Unarmed Florida man with hands up shot by police while calming autistic patient, Miami
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHBUdenbT9w

edit: sometimes Police Department loses the lawsuits , but i never get to hear what happens to actual Police Officer who caused the lawsuit!

Putting the police under the microscope of modern social media just amplifies the ill will caused by these events.  Being a police officer is incredibly difficult, apparently pretty dangerous, and now under-apreciated.

As I mentioned before, when trying to research information about police policy, I had to wade through pages of negative stories. Videos like this used to be local news, now it is the dominant national news shared about police departments.  I have seen a few attempts to push positive police stories, but they don't get traction and repeats on forums like ours, the way your youtube video did (I assume it is another negative image about police).

I already realize bad things happen in the world.  Bad police need to get culled out and the good police supported, not tarred with the same dirty brush.  Police generally get the benefit of the doubt in prosecution judgement calls because the job is so hard. Life or death decisions must be made in a fraction of a second, and guessing wrong can easily lead to the officer's death.

Historical statistics can be reviewed to identify officers who repeatedly make lethal mistakes resulting in civilian deaths, when their mistake results in their own death that becomes a statistic too. 

JR

 

[kambo]

i totally agree that
"Being a police officer is incredibly difficult, apparently pretty dangerous,"

i would say very dangerous!

we all need Police Officers... and those Police Officers who is serving for all of us, under those
dangerous conditions is something we all should respect ...
i dont think i would like to be a Police Officer in rough neighbour of Chicago.

but, there is a need for better mechanism for Police Officers avoiding extreme force...
i am gonna sound like Trump now. but, when u work long hours under danger
at all times, u might flip_off way quicker... we all do....

Police Officers are not getting paid that great great either...

i dont think anyone putting Police Officers under microscope... that wouldnt be fair...

if they were getting paid better, and better working conditions, and better training...  i dont think
we would come across as many incidents as we are now....  its give and take...

 

[Gold]

I'd say the first order of business is to stop talking about "good guys" and "bad guys". Most gun violence, or any violence for that matter happens when someone looses their shit and shoots in a moment of weakness.

Normal flawed humans making bad decisions. Not exactly unheard of.