U47 clone : AMI or IOAudio +Aputis ? First build ! And capsule question, too...

[GeorgeToledo]

(the markdown code for this forum and quote function is a little off, fwiw. It attributes the body of the post to whoever was being quoted...but the markdown code itself appears to look correct.)

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Ben, are you sure that these aren't your capsules?
Maybe you even don't know
For me it also looks like OEM.
Another german mylar

The german mylar comment REALLY cracks me up  ;D

 

[GeorgeToledo]

I have to laugh at some of the comments in this thread. EF12 is a poor choice for a tube in a U47 to begin with. The Peluso sounded better than the AMI? OK, sure.

You say that having tried the EF12 yourself, or just because you read it somewhere?

Otherwise OP, another vote here for the Haufe over the AMI. Sound quality preferences are subjective, but the difference in build quality between the two is extreme. Haven't heard the ioaudio.

Yeah, I've used the FLEA with EF12.  I don't think it's *bad* but it didn't seem to have the reach or lows of the Lucas CS4 or AMI EF80 series kit mic I've used. OR the few U47s, the U48, or even Bock E47 I've had opportunity to use (not direct A/B with those).

My experiences have led me to conclude that the EF8X series is a nice match for the circuit.

As far as the EF12 being better than two 408a's, I don't doubt that.

The opinions I'm sharing are definitely not from the standpoint of an uber-DIY guy, just someone who has used a lot of mics over the years, specifically some of the things that popped up in conversation. So I decided to chime in with some comments based on that frame of reference. My DIY projects have been limited to rack gear, some DI boxes...no mics yet.

I find the comments about the AMI transformers to be interesting and pretty hyperbolic, especially the little jabs about build quality and "truly professional".  I have no affiliations with anyone, just speaking from my experiences. A lot of stuff out of AMI/Tab has made my socks roll up and down, it sounds so good.

Then again, I'm sharing some non enthusiastic opinions about ADK, so I guess it cuts both ways.

 

[Banzai]

Your opinions are from personal experience and therefore valid. The opinions of others however, they're laughable and hyperbolic...

Got it

Edit: hope it's clear I'm being sarcastic...

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Well, I realize now that what happened is that Misha was banned from a forum that Oliver was a mod at...

As far as my comments about not being crazy about the ADK capsules, it is cool to read the revelation that they are supposed to be sort of "pre eq-ed".  I bet that's exactly what I'm hearing.

At no point have I said any of the things mentioned are downright awful, just voiced some preferences about matters of taste, made clear what I haven't heard, and shared some thoughts that I consider to be pretty darn moderate.

Never said anything was laughable, just for the record.

Love the forum here, am usually on lurker mode.  8)

 

[afdobbert]

Just have to chime in, I'm no expert, but I think this is important.

I built the EF47 project from Dan that Oliver helped design, in the relatively inexpensive 47 donor body from studio 939, therish capsule (Dans wasn't available yet), NOS tele EF800, and AMI classic BV08.

I've used real 47s in my time (I'm a young guy, so probably not as many as some around here), but I'm used to the sound profile you get from a 47. Yes, they all have little differences, but a 47 has a sound.

And my relatively inexpensive 47 sounds like a 47.

These little subtle differences are fun, and I do think it is important to talk about them, but I do not see the need to bash companies that offer products. It is nice that we have many options in many price points. Capsules from china can sound quite good. I have an Apex 460 with a cheap k47 that could pass for a 47 in a mix.

Here is what I'm trying to say: have fun building. The point at which the discussion of subtle differences becomes a source of anxiety, you are thinking too hard about it.

It's probably going to sound good (if you put it in the right spot on the right thing).

 

[micaddict]

Ben, are you sure that these aren't your capsules?
Maybe you even don't know

Guys, I never said or even meant to suggest that Ben makes them.

ADK mics is Larry Villella with two other guys involved.
Here's what Larry says about the other two:
"I have a mic wizard in Belgium, JP Gerard, who's my lead design engineer. He hired an aerospace engineer PhD from Australia to develop the capsule technology."

Also keep in mind that ADK microphones and capsules come in different qualities. There are the relatively inexpensive mics you often see. And there are the Z-mod custom series silver line that go for $3000, street. Same for the capsules. E.g. the GK versions of the 47 and 49 are mentioned here (and on actual shop sites) for $400:
http://recordinghacks.com/capsules/

There's more to write about the "aerospace engineer PhD from Australia", but I'm already drifting way off topic, so I'll refrain.

Ben, I'll send you a PM.

 

[mics]

Ben, are you sure that these aren't your capsules?
Maybe you even don't know

Guys, I never said or even meant to suggest that Ben makes them.

ADK mics is Larry Villella with two other guys involved.
Here's what Larry says about the other two:
"I have a mic wizard in Belgium, JP Gerard, who's my lead design engineer. He hired an aerospace engineer PhD from Australia to develop the capsule technology."

Also keep in mind that ADK microphones and capsules come in different qualities. There are the relatively inexpensive mics you often see. And there are the Z-mod custom series silver line that go for $3000, street. Same for the capsules. E.g. the GK versions of the 47 and 49 are mentioned here (and on actual shop sites) for $400:
http://recordinghacks.com/capsules/

There's more to write about the "aerospace engineer PhD from Australia", but I'm already drifting way off topic, so I'll refrain.

Ben, I'll send you a PM.

Foes this Aussie Dr have a name?  Also where are they made?

It's amazing that a Dr would come up with the exact same hole pattern etc as the nearly 75 year old designs of the past.  Man those old engineers must have been brilliant!

 

[ln76d]

Hole pattern, hole pattern... phi!

They are using german mylar and brass from mars!!!

Ah i forgot - the Dr has no name, NASA erased his identity after moon landing - TOP SECRET!

We can call it Dr Who! That would be really original (as the hole pattern) i think

 

[Bonnie1]

Toledo, You realized? Of course, it was predictable. I was never agree that AMI produce best x-formers, because I tested most of them in my lab and in A. Grosser's lab. When I just told something that Klaus and Oliver does not like, or something that may cause problem in theirs buisness- I was banned. I was not surprised. 

Misha, Did you share these test results?  Post them anywhere?
Please correct me if needed,  other than Klaus, Gunter Wagner uses AMI transformers and Microtech Gefell utilized Oliver's custom designed transformer for their UM75 anniversary mic, not to mention at least a dozen more microphone designers and service personnel.  Are you suggesting all these Engineers/ Service professionals are caught up in hype?

 

[micaddict]

Have you tried the Cinemag CM-2461 NiCo? 
A "drop-in replacement", but no copy.
IMO it somewhat lacks the distortion or "character" of the old thing.
But it has very good highs and deeeeeeeeeep, clean lows.
You win some, you lose some.

 

[Matt Nolan]

It is probably important to note here that the transformer interacts with the tube and the output capacitor. They work as one. A transformer that works really well in one configuration, may not work so well in another. If the AMI transformers work badly in the AMI designs then that would be telling. If they work not so well in different designs then that is less significant.

 

[ln76d]

Misha, Did you share these test results?  Post them anywhere?
Please correct me if needed,  other than Klaus, Gunter Wagner uses AMI transformers and Microtech Gefell utilized Oliver's custom designed transformer for their UM75 anniversary mic, not to mention at least a dozen more microphone designers and service personnel.  Are you suggesting all these Engineers/ Service professionals are caught up in hype?

It doesn't exclude that others "caught up in hype"  ;D

It is probably important to note here that the transformer interacts with the tube and the output capacitor. They work as one. A transformer that works really well in one configuration, may not work so well in another. If the AMI transformers work badly in the AMI designs then that would be telling. If they work not so well in different designs then that is less significant.

I think that Matt explained that really good.

All of these different feelings from many users can be correct, all depend on how and where transformer is used.
It doesn't mean that AMI stuff is bad, quite the opposite, is good that transformer have it own sound in different arrangement, but don't have to fit every build

 

[Bonnie1]

Wagner used specially designed x-formers from AMI, not stock. As for my results of test: yes, posted that Bv08N has less inductance than you can find on AMI website. All other results are not objective, because I tested the transformers in series, changing one to another, recording the files. To outsiders, these tests say little, because the direct comparison must be parallel. Here are all the reasons. I never claimed to be the only right opinion, but I wanted to share my impressions. And my friends that I have made a few microphones always preferred Haufe or IOaudio for u47. None of them, of course, did not know what I put in their microphones during the test, so their score was absolutely impartial. When  I first heard from customer dissatisfaction with the sound of mic ( muddy top end, lack of low end) I tried everything, including changing the capsule ( I tried k47 and few different M7 from Thiersch, old Gefell)and the tube( I tried Ef12, Vf14 ), but until I installed another transformer, my friend was not satisfied. With two next microphones was the same story, though I've tried Bv08r and Bv08 classic. So, these results are even more informative for me, so I stoped using AMI trannies, especially after Oliver departed us..  Of course, maybe Lucas mic and Ef800's based mic are great with AMI bv08, but I never tried this tube.

Misha,  You have no test results? Just your opinion.  This is probably why you were booted from the other forum.  Based upon what you wrote above, You have zero understanding of what you talking about, starting with your very 1st sentence.  Having a discussing with a person behaving like a fool, is a waist of time.

 

[ln76d]

Misha,  You have no test results? Just your opinion.  This is probably why you were booted from the other forum.  Based upon what you wrote above, You have zero understanding of what you talking about, starting with your very 1st sentence.  Having a discussing with a person behaving like a fool, is a waist of time.

Dear Dennise,

your comment is way off....

As a person related to AMI (you are current owner?), you should weigh words much more.
It's not good for the business, that way you can only discourage potential customers - this is of course your decision, but offending other forum member i think It concerns us all!

I'm not sure that you even have any idea what you talking about, from what i know you are not Oliver.
You didn't said anything meritorical on this forum. Only few accusations.
Misha knows exactly what he talking about, he proved that on many posts here.
Also he gaved you merithorical answer, now should be the time for your reply in the same way.
Instead we have really weak, offending, post.

Misha don't have to prove anything to you or any other manufacturer, he can have even opinion based on the fresh air.
But!
AMI should prove with any measurements, tests results or anything else, that their products really are as described.
If am wrong, show me some links, or publications, but only what i found are "opinions" - mostly things like NOS lamination blah, blah (things which none user can check or prove)  but nothing which really can prove the whole glory of the products.
Only marketing talking.
Some time ago also was my beloved "german mylar"!!!

Noone here isn't to bash AMI, same as with many the products, whatever it is, some people like it, some not.

I think that colgate paste smells like sh*t!

Do you think that colgate tommorow, or even today will comment that?
Do they write, that am a fool and should give them test results, that their paste smells like ehm...?

This is public forum, not marketplace.

 

[Bonnie1]

Hi In76d,
Oliver and I go back 17+yrs.  What Misha has been trying to do for years is discredit Oliver and his designs  without providing scientific measurements. Can he even verify that he purchased any transformers from AMI?  What Misha states about Wagner bvo8 is so far from the truth its appalling.
Everything I am aware of that Oliver stated concerning laminations, transformers etc... we have documentation to back it up 100%.  I ask you the same question, if Oliver was exaggerating the truth "Marketing Hype" do you believe all these reputable manufactures and Microphone service personnel would be caught up in this "Hype"?
-I would tread lightly not to place foot in mouth.

If there is something specific that AMI or Oliver has stated and you want confirmation,  please ask. 
There are over 100 pages on our website full of Historical knowledge that has been there since before Oliver passed. (It is taking us some time with everything going on.... however we are updating and re-organizing the website so its easier to navigate.  There are a few pages without direct links)

Two of Oliver's colleague's and close confidants were on the design team for ac701 and the other on the design team for M49. 
Oliver shared his knowledge openly. Gave 50 -60% more technical know how and expertise to the Audio community than any other Engineer/Technician,  it's who he was. 
Reading statements that are completely false and passing it along as the truth is disrespectful and a great disservice to our communtiy.
I must go back to work now.....

fyi name is Dennis Maximova,  my alias is Oly's family pets name.

 

[Pip]

And we have crossed the line!!!!!!

 

[Bonnie1]

1.Dennis, I did not mean to discredit Oliver or AMI. I just said what I said
2. I tried BV08N, Bv08classic and BV08r in standart U47 mode: with VF14. Also I tried BV08r and BV08 classic with EF12 ( Andreas Grosser/G.Wagner design) and two substitutes from A.Grosser. When I compared my mic with original U47 using the same tube and the same head I definately feeled muddy high freq-s and lack of low end. Alloy of BV08N was not bad, It looks like  real old stuff, but was it similar to Neumann BV08 in sound? No. Then I decided to measure it. My BV08N for example, has only ~111Henry inductance in comparisson Haufe has ~ 160 Henry, measured at two frequencies with the special very expensive inductometer at A.Grosser lab in Berlin three or so years ago.  I was surprised, but who knows- maybe it was just my bad luck with this particular transformer. I still have got 3 other BV08N in my studio, and when I'll be in Berlin again I will measure them and give some info, if you want.
3. With BV08 classc was interesting story: I recieved it with incomplete core, one of the plates of the core were absent. When I asked AMI to send the missing plate and sent a photo of my transformer( see attach) and they sent me a plate of a different material. Since I still did not like the sound, and the transformer was not assembled in the proper form, I sent it back to AMI . BTW, they acted honestly, I have no complaints about them. The money was returned to me and apologized. What other results you want from me? My files?  If you are working on AMI then you can find invoices that I paid for all products from AMI. Period. About Wagner: A. Grosser told me that Gunter( his friend, btw) used specially designed AMI transformers.  Maybe I've understand his words wrong way-I don't know, I do not insist on this, but on the other hand : taking into account the obtained results of my measurements and exceptional accuracy and care of Gunther, who would not allow any deviation from the norm......Anyway, actually, it does not matter for me, because I tried AMI bv08s by my self.
pS: The one thing I have always disagreed with Oliver: AMI - best transformers for U47. It was hard to convince him that there may be another point of view. I also noticed that when Oliver and especially Klaus was comfortable, they talked about the futility of scientific research in matters of sound and more importantly "feeling" that not all can be described by formulas and calculations. In other cases, when someone did not like theirs products or even have different " feelings" they demanded ( and you too) some direct scientific proof. Proof of what??? The fact that Haufe or IOaudio work more interesting for me in the U47? There are no many options for BV08 transformers today, so thats why many companies and engeneers prefer AMI products. That is my opinion.
In the future, please avoid the words equal to " lie" in relation to the people you don't even know. I never said " too far from truth" words or info  to audio community and I deeply do not care what you feel about me, but lets not start to speak in such a tone. If you need me to upload other  "proofs" , please, let me know what exactly you want from me before you say " Misha does not understand what he is talking about". Period.

Hi Misha,  There are many points to respond to and will when I have a bit more time.  a few things I will point out, the transformer in this pic does not look like an AMI BVO8, BV8n, BV8r or BV8 classic, wires and bobbin are similar in color thats it.  The lams are thicker gauge and it looks like a chambered bobbin.  It doesn't look like a historical rewind either, not sure what you have there?

Oliver and Clause's post on another forum completely have merit, and you are using there comments out of context.  Maybe you didn't fully understand what they said.  (this can happen easily, when english is not your native language)

You describe the frequency characteristics of the transformer in broad general terms.  "muddy high freq-s and lack of low end"  It is quite easy to show frequency response chart of this, and yet in 3+years you have not provided any proof.  With all the testing equipment you say you have access to, Ummm?  Instead you voice your opinion to whoever will listen. 

It has always been Oliver's policy, if you are not happy with the product return it for a refund.  Apparently you decided to keep them.

 

[o3misha]

photo 3 ( absence of one peace of core)

 

[ln76d]

Dennis,

all i want to say, is that i think is too much emotional from your side.
I didn't spot anything discrediting from Misha side.
He stated that he preferring something other than AMI, share his opinion but didn't said that AMI products are bad.
As many of us, sharing own experiences about many parts, products etc.
As i stated before i really admire Oliver work, but he wasn't saint. I would disagree with some of his statements especially about some orginal transformers (especially DDR made), and i think it wasn't lack of knowledge. This is not the point here, so please don't ask me to find it or prove it, ok? And NO, am not saying that Oliver was greedy and fool the people, but sometimes he bend the truth a little, but i believe it was much more his approach for microphone design and overall sound - not always my way
Again, no one said that ami products are bad. In my opinion the "hype" is mostly from the people which didn't had opprtunity to compare to the original BV08 (lets talk about it), but Misha isn't first who had more options to compare and he chose something else.
For all mentioned by you professionalists - what's the alternative? Cinemag? Not especially...
I think that AMI is currently only available option for wider scale, also popular and probably good sounding.
That doesn't mean it's exactly the same as original Neumann transformer (now is question - which one? - from what i remember BV08 had changed design during the years - maybe that's the key guys ).
What's the "NOS" lamination - it doesn't say anything who manufactured it and not proving any relation with original Neumann laminations.
Measurements - best option would be one microphone and measurement of response in the exactly same professional conditions - with original and ami transformer. Overall is hard to measure transformers, basic specs usual don't show anything.
So as we can see, this topic is not so easy
I will have to "rescan" ami website if there were some updates, and i always like to read Oliver articles or posts (he had great "flow") , but not always historical documentation gives answers for currently made products
Overall it's really hard to recreate many things from the past, technology changed as hell.

I hope you will stay with us longer, give us some answers about the products and maybe we could give you something back
Less emotions, more faith in other intentions!