Purusha

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« on: September 17, 2006, 03:37:01 AM »
I am just curious, has anyone actualy compared the G 1176 with Purple MC76 or the original UREI version?

Maybe I will DIY one for my friend in the near future if the G 1176 sounds at least 80% close to the real thing. I have a 108% perfect clone of the original UREI but don't have the G 1176 to compare with.

Ohm Tat Sat
Regards as always, Purusha


tony dB

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2006, 04:05:19 AM »
judging by a friend technician/producer the Purple was an exact replica of the original 1176. Maybe he was "parrotting" the commercial information...

I should ask him to checkout my 1176, that still needs a little tuning, so no cdirect comparison possible here.
I did' compare my version with my new bought 1176 and there's a significant difference. My 1176 has no iron built in yet, so I'm comparing apples and eggs  :evil:

SSLtech

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2006, 09:40:21 AM »
Question too simplistic.

Many different 1176's.

Purple is a replica of the BEST sounding 1176 in tha vast majority of people's experience.

G1176 is essentially a (near) replica of the latest version, long after the unit had lost the Class-A back end and begun to use the active front end.

I have built a pair of Purples, Finished building a few G1176's for people who haven't been able to get them tweaked/calibrated/working, and at work I have a Revision D Urei (the good one) and a revision G Urei (the late one) side by side.

G1176 is like the late silver-face. Very useful.

Purple audio 1176 is the VERY FINEST sounding replica that you can buy. Better then the Universal Audio reissue. The purple is the ONLY one with the exact circuitry of the revision D. The UA reissue is a very different front end.

My two Purple/Bloo replicas have been installed at a local rock studio for the last couple of months. I had to reclaim them to put in my compression rack. The studio also has a silver-face 1176 and is now sellling it. They tried Universal audio reissues and returned them. They have purchased a pair of Purple Audio MC77's.

Keith
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind"
Quote from: PRR
Ah, but that was 1999; we don't party like that any more.

Purusha

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2006, 10:14:57 AM »
Thank you Keith for your nice explanation  :thumb:

What about UA1176 vs G 1176? Any similarity here? My friend didn't like the UA version so if the G sounds the same than it's no go for G 1176 DIY.
Regards as always, Purusha

tony dB

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2006, 12:21:01 PM »
I'm not sure that 2 diy 1176 (with other brand components) will sound identical either. If you're after that classicsound buy a purple.
I have a UA and a clone, the UA get's favoured over the DIY 99% of the occasions. I need to pimp my diy 1176 urgent.

Don't forget to take iron, or no iron, into count too. My diy 1176 is without iron, plans are to change that first.

Rob Flinn

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2006, 12:49:20 PM »
Keith said
Quote
Purple is a replica of the BEST sounding 1176 in tha vast majority of people's experience


I've had it said to me by a couple of people who know vintage gear that the Purples are lacking in gain compared to the excessive amount that the originals have.   I've never played with one myself to know, but these comments come from people whose opinion I respect.  Keith can you comment on this or do some tests against your rev D to clarify whether this is the case ???

Also when you compare the G1176 to a late model UREI is that with or without the input transformers & was it with Lundahl or OEP.    I have compared the G1176 to my revision H UREI`s & they do sound similar as you say.   The G1176 that I compared only had Lundahl output transformers.   Like you said there are many variables !

Tony dB said

 
Quote
I have a UA and a clone, the UA get's favoured over the DIY 99% of the occasions.


Do the people do a blind test to select their favourite or do they know which they're listening to ??


What, if any, apart from the Purple or original transformer could one use to recreate the class A output of the rev D with it's feedback winding.  Any suggestions anyone ?
regards Rob

Purusha

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2006, 12:51:34 PM »
Iron is a must for me  :wink:
Regards as always, Purusha

Rob Flinn

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2006, 01:42:37 PM »
Quote
Iron is a must for me


I notice you didn't add any to your GSSL !
regards Rob

SSLtech

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2006, 02:13:44 PM »
Quote from: "Rob Flinn"
Keith said
Quote
Purple is a replica of the BEST sounding 1176 in tha vast majority of people's experience


I've had it said to me by a couple of people who know vintage gear that the Purples are lacking in gain compared to the excessive amount that the originals have.  

Hmm... not heard that, but I can certainly compare my bloo purple clone (built on a Purple MC76 PCB) with a Rev D at work and tell you for certain.

Keith
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind"
Quote from: PRR
Ah, but that was 1999; we don't party like that any more.

Purusha

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2006, 02:22:50 PM »
Quote from: "Rob Flinn"
Quote
Iron is a must for me


I notice you didn't add any to your GSSL !


No? You didn't saw my posts in some other thread? I have OEPs on the way for both GSSL units :wink:  :green:
Regards as always, Purusha


matthias

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2006, 02:32:49 PM »
I think it doesn't make any sense to use transformers for the ssl unless you change the in/outout stage completely...

Luny Tune

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2006, 07:27:09 PM »
Actually it makes a lot of sense. :wink:
To me, anyways...

I have fitted both my GSSLs with trannies and it adds to the already nice flavour of the units, I think. Sometimes I just run the EVP 88 e-piano softinstrument in Logic through a GSSL without comping just to get get the sound of the trannies on it. It sounds great. :razz:
Also, apart from adding to the "fattening-up" of the mix the trannies also add to the sense of separation when inserting it on the master.

You should however replace the four 100 Ohm resistors with 22 Ohm ones in order to drive the trannies best. But apart from that it's a very very simple operation. I know that not everybody agree with me but I love what they do and will not build another GSSL without trannies in the outputs.

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2006, 12:34:57 AM »
i wouldnt abandon the g1176 just for historical inaccuracy.  remember that it is good deal cheaper to build than a purple with the kit, and i would not call the oens i've built anything but very useful.  besides, you calibrate it ;]  its what you want it to be.

pick your trafos.  dont even have to use oep's or lundahls.  try cinemag.  try jensen.  its all yours for the trying.  

if you want the exact same thing, and want to build it yourself, the purple's where it's at, if you're after that particular blend of 1176....   or better yet, find an O12, rip a urei eq output tx, and find yourself a good old daven 600 ohm t attenuator.

and then integrate that with the g1176 board.

how accurate does it have to be exactly?

but remember, there's a million things you can do with that g1176 board.  make it yours.

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2006, 12:37:34 AM »
but on vocals and overall i think its 'just perfect'

when its what i'm looking for of course

edanderson

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2006, 01:45:41 AM »
oh dear, has everyone now done the homework that jens assigned?  i don't like to see this question come up over and over either, but it is confusing.  here are some cliffs notes that i hope will be helpful:

the rev A and B units (blue stripe) have a total of ~50db of system gain, with a 5db lower threshold point than the rev C-F (black face) which have ~45db of system gain (the F has a class AB output amp, C-E class A).  this means that if you were to turn the input knob to the same place on both a blackface and a bluestripe, and send them the same signal, the blue stripe would go into action first.  so you would naturally set the input control lower on a blue stripe (to get a similar threshold), and that is what the extra 5db of gain is for... to make up for the extra attenuation at the input.

the purple and the UA are both based on the rev D/E units, so they both should have 45db of system gain.  the purple MC76 and MC77 are tested for that before they leave the shop.  the earlier and perhaps present UA units probably do, but they had that "mid era" where they re-did the front end, so who knows for sure.

the g1176 is based on the later rev G (the first silverface).  revs F-H used an output transformer (B11148) that was configured as 1:3.5 (10db gain) for the domestic market or 1:1 (unity gain) for export to europe.  the gyraf PCB uses a lundahl output as a 2:1 stepdown (6db loss).  some people modified the PCB to reverse the transformer.  the mnats PCB has options for various 1:2 stepup (6db gain) transformers.  and the front end is either an opamp (rev G) or a bridging transformer before a pot, similar to the solution UA used in their "mid era" reissues (to be contrasted with an attenuator before the transformer, as in the rev F and earlier).  finally, the threshold sensitivity is again different on the rev G, so the input knob settings do not translate well from a rev G to the D/E units.

ANYWAY, there are many options with the g1176, and yes you can make something mighty close to a rev G or even a rev F if you source all the right parts.  i think experimentation is great and you can certainly make some interesting custom units.  try a 31267 on the input and a lo2567 on the output, for example.  or a cinemag version.  or the OEP versions on the mnats PCB.  lots of options.

that said, the class A output section of the rev D/E, as found in the purple units/kit, is different from what you can do with the g1176.  and that is the sound some people are after.

ed

Purusha

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2006, 05:07:52 AM »
Maybe we should make some 4 and 8db GR sound files through what ever you've got. We just need one nice uncompressed vocal and instrument sample to run it through. I can run it through my UREI clone as well. We just have to ignore the fact of using different converters but this is not such a big factor IMHO. Any decent 96KHz converter should do.

What do you say? C'mon, let's have some fun  :green:
Regards as always, Purusha

tony dB

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2006, 08:28:09 AM »
Quote from: "Rob Flinn"


Tony dB said

 
Quote
I have a UA and a clone, the UA get's favoured over the DIY 99% of the occasions.


Do the people do a blind test to select their favourite or do they know which they're listening to ??


I often set up a few different compressors (ranging from DIY channelcomps, Distressors, Gyraf G10, UA1176, DIY1176, DBX, ...) tru subgroupsends. I don't tell anyone what they hear, they just pick what they feel flattering their instruments. I never found my DIY 1176 sounding as good as my UA 1176 (and I don't have any problem with that, I'm after extra colours most of the time). We've reached consensus numberous times, my DIY version doesn't even come close, lack of iron is a big factor of this. As I said, I need some serious pimping on the DIY1176 and iron is the very first thing to go for. No offense to the G1176 at all, I take full responsability for the "uncomplete" clone. I'm also sure that a lot of the 1176 built by people overhere, can seriously compete other variants. Just not mine. That's also the main reason I said
Quote from: "tony dB"
I'm not sure that 2 diy 1176 (with other brand components) will sound identical either.

there's so much variaty in all G1176 built that it is simply not possible to say what sounds better than what else...

And then there's TASTE and other elements in the mix, ...

t-wurst

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2006, 08:34:49 AM »
i can compare my g1176 build with Lundahl Output Iron with two different 1176 Blackface and to my ears the DIY version win the shootout. I canĀ“t say what version of 1176 it was, but i would prefer my lundahl, especially in the "in your face" disciplin.
 
I can it also compare to an "Phoenix" Tube compressor but i think thats another chapter and should be discussed elsewhere.....  :grin:

tony dB

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2006, 08:35:03 AM »
:oops:

and then I read the rest of what was posted after Rob's post and found myself repeating a lot...

SSLtech

G 1176 vs PURPLE AUDIO MC76 vs UREI 1176
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2006, 08:38:13 AM »
Ed, Good to see you around again... I know that you're a busy man, and just abour the best placed to comment on this subject these days!  :wink:

Thanks for those input attenuators... they're the ones that I used in mine. -For what it's worth, they generated a couple of extra sales for Purple, since when the studio returned them to me, and determined that they didn't like the UA versions (which are basically the same output stage... almost) they called me and asked if there were ANY other 1176's out there that sounded like mine... I told them to try the Purple, -they did, and now they've ordered a pair. -They have a rev F/G 1176 and it's up for sale if anybody wants one...

From that account alone, and judging by the fact that the of two genuine UREI 1176's here, people generally reach for the top one (the older 'D' one, with the O-12 input tranny) thoughsome people profess to liking the lower one (the newer, transformerless-input 'G' version) for some specific things, like snares that need to stay particularly crisp under heavy GR...

I don't think that sound samples really help. Not everybody hears the same thing, different attack/release rates, differenc spectral content of (for example) different acoustic guitars mean that the 'boom' from some guitars will 'push' the GR harder, resulting in an overcompressed sound. The same amount of GR on a different guitar, or with the mic moved at an angle forther away from the soundhole exit, will produce a less 'pumped' sound even on the same comrpessor, so this really is a futile exercise in my opinion.

There are too many versions of the 1176 to generalise, but to my mind the best sounding revisions for overall work are D and E. The later ones compress fairly well, but the tonal characteristic is a little more 'spitty'. It's only slight, i hasten top point out, but it's vastly more significant to me than the difference between most mic preamps, which -to most people- is really only fairly slight. (I'm sure my mum couldn't tell the difference between any of 'em!)

So if you can't afford an early or even a late 1176, the G1176 is a phenomenally powerful tool to have at your disposal. But in my former life as a recording and mixing engineer, I know that you can move from studio to studio, see black-face 1176's in the rack, and STILL not be guaranteed of any particular sonic performance. You have to suck-it-and-see.

Let's face it. You build one, you learn something. You modify it, you learn even more. Personalise one, -hell, they're cheap enough! If you think Lundahl's are too clean (as I sometimes do) then whip them out and try something down-n-dirty, like OEP. Will they make your G1176 sound like a Revision D? -Never[/u][/b] in a million years! There's no tertiary winding feedback, no class-A discrete output stage, and active electronics before the input control. Will you like the sound? -Very likely. And if you don't,  there a re tons of people here who will trade transformers until everyone ends up with something that they're happy with.

But you simply can't say "the G1176 is less like a UREI than a Purple" or "the Purple is more like a Urei than a UA reissue"... You have to be quite specific.

And if you ever HAVE heard an 1176 and liked it? which one was it? Perhaps the Gyraf version will be exactly what you're looking for. -If however you're looking for deep, strong, rich sound under stiff compression and heavy GR, I rather suspect that -like the local studios who tried my Bloo/Purples- you really want the Rev D UREI, or the Purple.

The Purple has several significant advantages over the original UREI version: XLRs and other visible things are one small thing, but the fact that none of the two big transformers are mounted on the PCB is a HUGE reliability advantage... you might not think so unitl you drop one... I've had to repair more than a couple of snapped/cracked UREI PCBs in my time, and the Purple is just the same darned exact thing, but with better mechanical engineering, and transformers bolted to the CASE instead of the board. The Meter in the UREI is modutec and is reasonable, but the HOYT meter in the purple -while not my favourite meter- I do have to admit it's rather better than the modutec. Myself, I have now replaced my modutecs with Sifams inmy own units: the "swingy" modutec ballistic was making me dizzy!

Keith
"A waist is a terrible thing to mind"
Quote from: PRR
Ah, but that was 1999; we don't party like that any more.


 

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