Pan Circuit Math

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beatpoet

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
334
Location
Michigan
Call me a newb, but:

Can anyone explain to me or point me in the direction of some reading that explains the math of a pan circuit?

I'm going to try for a unity gain mixer with 600R sources and a tube makeup stage.

Thanks.
 
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=120047#120047
...and about a hundred other threads here. Try a search on both "panpot" and "pan pot."

Also, see Precision Pan Pots (Engineering Report, Richard C. Cabot, Journal of the AES, April 1978, Volume 26, Number 4) for a detailed discussion of angular displacement vs. attenuation.
 
http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/panner.pdf

I'm terrible with that search thing..

I was trying 'pan circuit equations' etc
 
[quote author="beatpoet"]Call me a newb, but:

Can anyone explain ... [/quote]
even when it is explained
there are more than just a few ideas out there, on what is correct pan math

not all pans are equal
in fact, I think
that most pans are different
 
At the risk of frying in the pan :shock:
In the early days of pan control development, we tried different laws:
If you stick to a 'constant energy' type of control (6dB down in the middle for each side) then the centre image appears to dip slightly. It works best with a dip of about 2 to 3dB in the centre; this is a compromise so that a panned signal does not increase in level too much as it approaches the centre, and does not suffer from the 'hole in the middle' effect.
BUT..... All this is really tosh :roll: Pan controls actually don't work! Spatial positioning to the ear is a combination of variations in amplitude and timing of the signal that hits the ears. Amplitude difference without timing difference sort of works; well it's been done that way for about 50 years, but it's a horribly poor compromise compared to real spatial effects created naturally by 'sum and difference' recording.
 
[quote author="TedF"]At the risk of frying in the pan :shock:
In the early days of pan control development, we tried different laws:
If you stick to a 'constant energy' type of control (6dB down in the middle for each side) then the centre image appears to dip slightly. It works best with a dip of about 2 to 3dB in the centre; this is a compromise so that a panned signal does not increase in level too much as it approaches the centre, and does not suffer from the 'hole in the middle' effect.
BUT..... All this is really tosh :roll: Pan controls actually don't work! Spatial positioning to the ear is a combination of variations in amplitude and timing of the signal that hits the ears. Amplitude difference without timing difference sort of works; well it's been done that way for about 50 years, but it's a horribly poor compromise compared to real spatial effects created naturally by 'sum and difference' recording.[/quote]
I'd like to take issue with Ted's reply as a generalisation, and for a couple of points of explanation.

Certainly, -3dB @ centre works best for stereo listening. -2dB @ center is never the right thing to do. It's too loud in stereo and it's 4dB too loud when you sum to mono.

The problem is that when you sum to mono, a fader with a constant-level signal which is slowly panned from left-to-right (or vice versa) will need to be 6dB down at the center compared to the edges, in order for there to be a constant level across the travel. This is easy. Two linear pots wired on opposition will give you the perfect law for mono.

In stereo, two equal powers sum to 3dB and not 6dB, so the same pan law will sound 3dB too quiet in the middle, when listened to in stereo.

So you have a simple choice if you want absolute equal level in one or other format: -3dB for stereo or -6dB for mono. Some consoles -like older Harrisons and Ameks- had pan law switches which allowed the user to choose on a channel-by-channel basis.

The majority of major manufacturers nowadays split the difference. SSL for example uses -4.5dB. This means that in stereo it sounds a little over a dB quiet in the middle, and in mono, it's a-dB-and-a-bit stronger in the middle. Nobody complains.

I've never ever heard or a -2dB pan law, and I shoudl imagine that the 4dB error in mono would be disasterous. -Ted, if you know of a manufacturer who's ever implemented that one, I'd be VERY interested to try their stuff... I should imagine I'd loathe it!

As for pan controls not working, again I disagree. The mechanics of this are pretty well known and I'm sure most of us are familiar with the influence of timing differences. Certainly for example, spaced mics offer timing cues, but sum to mono like crap. Coincident mics sum to mono beautifully, but offer notiming cues, only amplitude. To say that "Panning doesn't work" is to impute that X/Y micing doesn't work, since it produces similar amplitude distribution with no timing cues. Likewise the inference would be that Soundfield microphones don't work either, since they're fully-coincident, and offer amplitude-only decoded outputs.

I'm also a little confused by the use of the term "sum & difference" other than in the M/S, FM stereo or B-format applifations...

Sorry to put you through the wringer Ted, but I think the "Pan controls don't actually work" is an extremist statement. -Bearing in mind that for timing cues to arrive unpolluted at the listener, acoustic loudspeaker inter-aural crosstalk is a big no-no... so that leaves binaural only... While I LOVE binaural and have enjoyed making many such recordings over the years, it's just impractical for many applications.

I've also used the Studer 950 digital console with VSP, -and was at one point several years ago asked if I'd like to move to Switzerland and take over the product management for it. That console has many different pan modes: amplitude-only (which -as you very correctly point out has its failures) two different HRTF (head-related transfer function) modes, which add timing shifts to the secondary channel, and slightly shift the amplitude & phase responses to a greater or lesser degree, to recreate a cosine-related timing delay and 'shadow' effect (amongst other things... it really is VERY clever!) and an additional "ultra" 'VSP" panning which adds after-event reflections with timing, response and angles which vary with the source angle in a VERY realistic way.

-Of course, even with something as fabulous as the D950S, only amplitude-only panning sums down to mono with no ill effects. You have to consider the purpose.

Keith
 
Ho Ho... I thought we would get some interesting flack from that one! :grin:
But seriously Keith, have you ever tried a pan pot with 2dB down in the middle? There used to be an argument that if it's in the middle it should be heard to be louder!
Of course my comments about amplitude only panning are extreme, I'm trying to get across the notion of correct realisation of depth and spatial images and in that context I'm right.

Did Studer manage to get their HRTF system working correctly and impressively?

When I referred to 'sum and difference', I was talking about X/Y micing and to say that this produces no timing clues is actually wrong; it's as wrong as the usual theory that is trotted out when matrix systems are taught or explained; the reality is that the L part of the mono (L+R) signal is NOT the same as the L part of the difference signal (L-R).
The difference signal 'hears' a greater percentage of reflected sounds within the soundfield and so produces timing/positioning clues; Soundfield mics work the same way of course.

Actually, stereo loudspeakers dont work very well either ( :grin: ) and Alan Blumlein agreed to that back in 1931. Yes, the inter aural crosstalk is the main problem, and that's exacerbated by timing errors that get worse the farther away from the single 'sweet spot' that you get..... but that's drifting off topic! :guinness:
 
Yes, the Studer application works impressively well, though -as I mentioned- the operator does have to be cautious, since fold-down can start to diminish the result. -What sounds fantastic in multi-channel can sound worse than amplitude-only distribution if the operator isn't careful. Fold-down checking is of critical importance when you start to use a lot of clever delay-related panning, especially on wide-band sources.

Hmmm... the "should be louder in the middle" argument is a classic example of theoriticians dictating practice to practitioners. In fact, with static positions, a balance engineer will of course set the balance to what he likes, and will compensate no matter what pan law the designer throws at him.

If I -as a film dubbing engineer- were to approximate a "drive-by", then I might well want things to be louder in the middle, however I'm most certainly NOT going to rely on the pan pot to do all of the level duties; that would be preposterous! No, I'll do the level rise & falloff with the fader, of course. However, if I want Jimi Hendrix's guitar to wander over the stereo field, then I'll very much appreciate it if it didn't change in level unneccesarily.

No, somewhere between -3dB and -6dB will be just fine by me, and I expect that -2dB will just cause me to berate the product! :twisted:

I do love the fact that the film dubbing consoles that we do have here have multiple pan law options. For folding down to the many lesser-channel options, it gives the dubbing engineer many more choices, and -again, 3dB is -if not actually too much- in the middle, then certainly on the verge of being too much. 6dB is sometimes too little, but I could never see a dubbing engineer enjoying a -2dB pan law. ...-In fact right now I'm picturing one particularly outspoken engineer and imagining what he'd say if I suggested such a thing... -It wouldn't be pretty! :evil:

As for truly coincident X/Y providing timing cues, here I'm going to insist that we differ. The precise reason that it works so well in mono is that it there are no timing differences. -Also, having designed and built some analog SoundField decoders myself, I must differ there too.

In fact if the 'L' part of 'L+R' is different from the 'L' in 'L-R', then my entire belief system needs re-examination. (and I wonder how FM stereo receivers get it right!)

It should be pointed out that -while I was still based in Britain- I did work for a long time as a rock & pop engineer, rising to chief engineer at one of the country's top studio complexes. I grew to be considered one of the foremost experts on 'panning' -because that's exactly what the critics did to most of my work!
:wink: :twisted: :wink: :twisted: :wink: :twisted: :wink: :twisted:

Keith
 
The story may be apocryphal, but I once read a claim on Usenet that the BBC had undertaken a study of pan laws and published their results in an engineering report. And, it's alleged, that was the origin of the -4.5dB compromise standard. If the paper exists, I'd love to see it.
 
Hmmm, -didn't know that bit of the tale...

But we had an Amek M3000 from back in 1979 which had -3dB and -6dB pan laws switchable. You could really hear when -3dB worked, then hear it get too loud in mono. -In "-6" mode, mono sounded great, but it dipped in the middle in stereo.

When we bought our first SoundCraft, I remember measuring the pan at -4.2dB @ centre, and I thought it was a reasonable compromise.

Then we bought our first SSL, and I realised a lot of things! :green:

Keith
 
the various DAWs have different pan laws
as an example
and I haven't used the current ProTools 7+ but as far as I can remember, earlier PT versions have a 2.5dB pan
and I think Cubase has 3dB ??

constant energy
or consistancy of level when in mono
... or an even sound when through speakers

it might be nice if this could be user set
and that might be a little difficult for an analog desk but should be ok for a DAW or Digital Mixer.

The Tascam DM series can do this, I think.
 
and I haven't used the current ProTools 7+ but as far as I can remember, earlier PT versions have a 2.5dB pan

I've not sat and seriously mixed on Pro-Tools for a long time (5.1.3cs 11?), but I would quite happily confirm that the 2.5dB pan in Pro-Tools is awful.

Just my opinion.

Matt
 
Pan law was new to me at the time of starting this thread - no longer.

This article helped a bunch too:

http://www.eqmag.com/story.asp?storycode=7672
 

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