New microphone setup (looking for)

Hi,

Our rehearsal space has moved to a new location.
Previously we've been using a stage-like setup: big room
with wooden stage, high ceiling and not too much damping on the walls.
Gig-type of setup (gtr-drms-bss), mics right in front of the stage (card.LDC in X-Y
or omni's in A-B) gave pretty good 2-tr recording-results, with a healthy dose
of the nice ambience that room has. Let's describe the type of music as loud rock
and we don't do vocals for now.

The new location is completely different: box-in-box, pretty dead, smaller, square, lower-ceiling.

So I see two issues coming up: most practically we'll be doing the circle-setup (i.s.o. that as-on-stage):
and the livelyness of our previous space will be pretty absent in the new recordings I'm afraid.


What would be a good recording-setup to use now ? Our new situation will be much like lots of
other bands are already doing, so I'm wondering how they record their stuff.

Note that it concerns rehearsal-recordings, so while a nice sound is of course great,
a decent 'observability' of the various intruments should take priority (the dead-room will help here actually), as is a quick setup.


W.r.t. microphone-positions I've been thinking of a few things to try. Obviously we just need to try
a few setups, but any comments/additional suggestions welcomed !


#1
One or two fig-8 ribbons in the centre. That'd be a Blumlein then, but how would that work 'inside' i.s.o.
'in front of' the sources ?

#2
Pair of card. LDCs or SDCs in the centre, capsules close (on-top of each other), 180' rotated
w.r.t. each other.

#3
A pair of omni's in the centre at belt-height, capsules close, on the same axis but face-to-face,
one slighty above the other. I guess this would be a big mono mic then.
(my omni's are dynamic 'pencil-type': Beyer Dynamic M101NC)

#4
That pair of omni's in A-B in the centre at belt-height, facing to the ceiling.

#5
One or two card. LDCs or SDCs on drums and a dynamic mic each for bss & gtr.
Mixing to stereo or recording on four tracks.



Thanks!

Peter

#5 would give you the best results in that environment I think, but then again you could keep playing with a stereo set-up until you get it the way you like it.

-Casey

Hi Casey,

[quote author="signalflow"]#5 would give you the best results in that environment I think, [/quote]

Thanks for responding :thumb: #5 is also more setup-hassle, but even at the old location it gave the best results - and understably so, obviously more control over balance, cleaner signals etc.
I should go back to those multitracks, have a listen to how much 'room' there actually is on the cab-mics. IIRC we didn't set the mics too close o these to avoid 'airy' drums vs 'dry' gtr & bss.
Hope to be able to do that in the new location as well, but since it's smaller there'll be more spill I expect. Well, maybe spill compensates a bit for a too dry room, etc-etc we'll just have to try...

but then again you could keep playing with a stereo set-up until you get it the way you like it

Click to expand...

... right, while multitracking-with-tracks-to-spare anyway will try to find a nice stereo-setup as well, will report back.

No more people in an alike situation ? Looks like a pretty common 'problem' to me - we've been able to avoid it so far, but now we're there as well. Obviously trying is best, but while at it let's share as well :thumb:


Bye,

Peter

If you end using a pair of omnis I would say to place them closer to the sources than you would think when you look at it. DPA has it listed on their website, but an omni will have the same amount of reflected room sound when it is placed 40 percent closer to the source than a cardioid.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=25

I used two omnis for this purpose but one was for the vocals mainly and the other was for the instruments.

Thanks Brad for responding & the link you gave. Will sure try nearer locations for the omni's, indeed, old-location recordings gave sometimes a bit too much room, so were always pulled in closer to 'us'.

It's tempting to rig up four stereo-pairs, record them all on the 8-tr harddisk machine and compare (I recall I could have added a pair of PZMs to the list as well), but then also toying around with mic-positions wouldn't result in a fruitful rehearsal anymore I'm afraid... :wink: better one pair at the time.

Bye,

Peter

Are you mixing straight to 2-track?

How many mics are you willing to set up?

[quote author="rodabod"]Are you mixing straight to 2-track?

How many mics are you willing to set up?[/quote]

Hi Roddy,

The short answers: no, rather not mix, so if needed then each mic an own track on a suited recorder (4- or 8-track machine). Up to 4 mics would be OK for a regular setup.


Most practical is to have a stereo-pair to a digital 2-track if that gets the job done.

If more is required then preference to avoid a mix, most likely unsatisfied with the on-the-fly-made settings (lack of decent monitoring, other bandmembers noodling around while adjusting etc). So then it'll be to a digital 8-tr (FWIW, VSR-880), about as easy to set up as the 2-tr, just a few more mics. I guess four mics would be no problem, suiting the stereo-drums (can be one mic-stand) & for gtr & bss a mic each.


BTW, never having tried a Blumlein fig-8 pair, #1 of above. I'm intrigued how that would sound when put in the centre. Say the front of the array is aimed at drums and the rest (gtr, bss) at the rear.
When played back in stereo the sources at the back of the array would obviously be polarity reversed (compared with how it sounds when actually 'listening there') but that shouldn't be a problem I expect since it concerns sources uncorrelated with the drums (apart from playing the same song :twisted: :wink: ). Certainly to be tried once second fig-8 mic arrives.


Cheers/thanks,

Peter

I'd aim to avoid phase issues. Try the Blumlein - sounds interesting.

Another option could be a omnis on the ground PZM setup in either spaced or crossed-pair configuration.

[quote author="rodabod"]I'd aim to avoid phase issues. Try the Blumlein - sounds interesting.[/quote]
Just one fig-8 here so far, but two pairs of fig-8 candidates coming up in the TNC-groupbuy :thumb: (rib & dual-diaphr LDC)

Another option could be a omnis on the ground PZM setup in either spaced or crossed-pair configuration.

Click to expand...

I get the former, sounds good. But PZMs as crossed-pair, how could a close pair of 'half-omnis' (hemispherical) do location-info ?

Bye,

Peter

[quote author="clintrubber"]But PZMs as crossed-pair, how could a close pair of 'half-omnis' (hemispherical) do location-info ?
[/quote]

Hah! Good point. I have seen the triangle "thing" done with omnis before which was what was in my mind, ie. omnis spaced, but pointing inwards towards source. Cardioids crossed on the floor could be interesting....

The TNC condenser mic should be good fun. These things are easy to mod using the original boards.

Cool, clear, thanks :thumb: A good reason to finish that second PZM, first one already modded for phantom & added pre-stage (per ESP #93), second one to follow.

The TNC condenser mic should be good fun. These things are easy to mod using the original boards.

Click to expand...

I've promised myself not to open any more mics The number may be kept constant by finishing previous mods & opening new mics, but that's it ! :wink:

Cheers,

Peter

[quote author="clintrubber"]
I've promised myself not to open any more mics The number may be kept constant by finishing previous mods & opening new mics, but that's it ! :wink: [/quote]

Ok, just make sure the valve is a good choice and think about swapping the capsule. I'll say no more.

[quote author="rodabod"]Ok, just make sure the valve is a good choice and think about swapping the capsule. I'll say no more.[/quote]

:wink:

OK, I'll temporary re-assemble another mic-project so that I can...

Should perhaps have ordered two of those big ones, but went for one - but ordered a pair of the FET multipatterns... - and there's the ribbon-pair that I'd like to try for Blumlein as well.

[quote author="clintrubber"]
#2
Pair of card. LDCs or SDCs in the centre, capsules close (on-top of each other), 180' rotated
w.r.t. each other.[/quote]
First test yesterday wasn't bad... we used this setup #2, but even worse: LDCs (pair of unmodded MCA SP-1) back to back, capsules some 10-15cm from each other at same height, orientation 180' w.r.t. each other. An 'A-Z setup' ?!

Worked well for having all stuff clearly translated to recorded bits: gtr left (on axis), bss right (~on axis) and drums on both (90' off axis, hence less 'direct').
W.r.t. old room I think both gtr & bss were more clear now, but the nice big room on drums was lost since we're not longer in that big room...
If we want to make better recordings in the new one I'm afraid the signature of it on drums is not as nice as the older, so we might need to use stuff on that (which wasn't needed previously).

To be continued with other tests.

BTW, I'm not sure this is still of too much interest but at least this thread will serve as a handy notebook for me :wink:

Bye,

Peter

I'm glad #2 worked out for you; I was going to recommend it. I've used it to capture jam sessions, and it's worked, although with a slight hole-in-the-middle effect.

A couple of omnis 6" apart would also be worth trying.

Peace,
Paul

[quote author="pstamler"]I'm glad #2 worked out for you; I was going to recommend it. I've used it to capture jam sessions, and it's worked, although with a slight hole-in-the-middle effect.

[/quote]
Thanks Paul for the reaction :thumb:
Hole in the middle a good description. Drums are in fact closest to the mics, but on 90' on each, so less bright/direct. IIRC those SP-1s are even described as somewhat tight for their card. pattern, explaining that further.
Going to three mics is little additional effort but could solve that, perhaps creating all kins of new issues... I guess then better using that third mic on drums & shift the orig stereo pair simply out to being more direct-mics on gtr & bss.

The resulting picture is obviously too panned w.r.t. gtr & bss but very usable for a rehearsal-recording.

A couple of omnis 6" apart would also be worth trying.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I have a pair of good dynamic omni's, so can&will try. Since no omni is of course fully without any directivity, what direction do you suggest ? Same as before, horizontal, 180' rotated w.r.t. each other ?
Or pointing to the ceiling for some 'mini-A-B' ? (for a variation on #4 from above)

[BTW] thinking of minimizing setup-hassle a bit further by using gear that's already there. An fresh unused Peavey powered mixer, a few stereo & a few mono channels, phantom on the mic-inputs, ... but no pan on the mono-channels to make a quick stereo-mix [/BTW]

Regards,

Peter

clintrubber said:

W.r.t. microphone-positions I've been thinking of a few things to try. Obviously we just need to try
a few setups, but any comments/additional suggestions welcomed !


#1
One or two fig-8 ribbons in the centre. That'd be a Blumlein then, but how would that work 'inside' i.s.o.
'in front of' the sources ?

Click to expand...

Let's update:

The Blumlein-setup in the middle (#1) has been tried as well with pretty nice results.
Position of sources (=us) is as in this pic, but with a pair of LDCs in fig-8 in the middle, above each other, 90' rotated.




Initially the stereo-spread is very nice, but soon too much on spots, almost to the point where one starts to doubt the polarity of one mic vs the other (they're those ACM-mics after all...)

New as I am to Blumlein, I could imagine the occasional 'overstereo' though, we're throwing only the drums to it 'as it should', but bss & gtr enter from 'wrong' directions.

But pulling in the pan-pots for each channel did the trick here, despite that this might *%$#-up the way Mr B intended this all.

While the dual omni (#2) was nice as well, it had indeed the hole-in-the-middle.

It looks like of the various two-mic setups we've tried so far the Blumlein-in-the-centre is the nicest 


Next up: #2 with the ACM-3 ribbons.
 

Bye,

 Peter

My rehearsal space is a fairly small square room that is dead. I would assume you wish to record rehearsals  as a study guide or something along those lines. What we have been doing since the space is small is a pair of sm57's in an xy. Nothing is really close miced other then a vocal mic going through a small p.a., it all comes through fairly evenly now that I fixed the feedback p.a. issues I was having a while back. The feedback was due to the mic pre  on the mixer up to loud as at the time our singer/guitarist was singing way too softly. His voice has become much stronger then. Anyway when we record rehearsals we do it to stereo and it has worked out nicely. Well it works perfectly for our purposes. something to think about as it is fairly cheap to set up too.

Hi,

Two mics makes for a nice simple setup indeed, but the thing was where to point them. It makes the most sense with three musicians to position yourself as in the pic I inserted above and then the thing is, where to aim that XY-array ?

Not a big issue - because just as for your case, it's for registration of songs we're building.

But while at it, it's of course fun to get things as good as possible & still keep it simple.
Pointing the XY to drums give good drums, but less clear gtr & bass and vice-versa.

Hence the various omni & fig-8 ideas above.

The Blumlein I added yesterday is also just two mics, but two fig-8 mics, also could be said in XY, it's just that they now also take the stuff at the rear along. It's nice.

Bye,

  Peter 

clintrubber said:

Click to expand...

Actually, since you already posted this pic from the Zoom manual: Did you try a Zoom H2?
If it's just about hearing yourselves, I'd simply place a Zoom H2 on a tripod in the middle of the room and record in 4ch surround. That'll give you two 2-Track Wavs which you can later re-balance, if necessary.