I need to vent on something

I really hate getting into debates about politics or religion with friends, largely because I'm not so good at it.

A friend of mine posted a link to the Daily Mail about how wrong the government was stop flights over the Atlantic due to the ash cloud, claiming it was not as bad as thought and that their carelessness caused all the stranded people and millions lost, and so on. I made a comment that I don't trust much of anything posted in the Daily Mail, and he then eviscerated me for not having any evidence to back that up.

Well, first of all, I don't trust any newspaper without any corroboration. But second of all, I wasn't able to cite any specific cases of the Daily Mail being untrustworthy. To me, though, the issue is bigger-picture than that. Like the difference between a cult and a religion, there is no single defining characteristic, but instead a bunch of smaller issues that add up. In the case of the Daily Mail, I've seen a number of headlines, all of which were designed to instill fear and anger in a way that makes me wonder what they're up to. Add it all up and it just smells funny.

Am I off-base with this thinking?

...a number of headlines, all of which were designed to instill fear and anger...

Click to expand...

Sounds like typical news to me...

Ha, I guess it does, when put in that light.

See? I'm clearly no good at arguing politics, and despite my best efforts to be a skeptic, I still fall into elephant traps like this one. I hope I come out of this a stronger person, but right now, I feel like shit and that I have no real worth in the world if my brain's going to always fail on me at critical moments.

This is how I feel when I quarrel with the wife

I mean, who really cares in the end, if you pay your rent on time, and there's food on the table for your kids, right?  All that stuff is just someone tryin' to make a buck to pay their rent, and put food on the table for their kids.  They just happen to have a louder bullhorn than everyone else.

Well, the Daily Mail thing is just an example. It all comes down to me trying to be rational and logical and then falling flat on my ass in the most embarrassing way possible. The only conclusion I can come to is that I don't care about these issues as much as I thought I did, and I should just get back to my physics education and building the perfect stand-up drum set.

The critical moment of brain failure, by the way, was watching this video and assuming those were real headlines because he was holding up actual broadsheets, and then finding out they're all made up. Now, most people would say the lesson learned is to not trust anything comedy or satire for any real information, but all I'm taking away is that I'm an idiotic and worthless prick who's no longer entitled to his opinion.

"Well now most people would say the lesson learned is to not trust anything comedy or satire for any real information"


It was wisely observed by the poet Jane Hirshfield, I believe, that - throughout history the village idiot was the only one allowed to fully and openly speak the truth on religious and political matters.

Chris Rock always has plenty of good ones these days.

It's like finding out years later how much MAD magazine was kind of right on the money about a lot of things

I wouldn't wipe my arse with the daily mail.

A quick google found...

Daily mail telling lies...
http://www.globaldashboard.org/2010/03/10/daily-mail-facebook/

Daily mail fiddling with the evidence...
http://www.globaldashboard.org/2010/03/11/daily-mail-war-hero/

Daily mail makes stuff up
http://lordmatt.co.uk/item/255/

I'm sure there are many more.

everyone knows that if you want the news, you watch John Stewart and Stephen Colbert

Actually, how come you USA dudes are reading the Daily Mail? It's not one of our finest exports.

It's because the article talking about the grounding of planes from the ash cloud being a bad decision happened to be on the Daily Mail web site.

Hey Consul,
Don't beat yourself over the idea that you might not be good at arguing politics. 

I've been reading a good book called "First Break All The Rules" which, incidentally, is about being a good manager.  They talk about how great managers realize that people have natural gifts and abilities, and how in our society, often we are told to spend a lot of time "improving on our weaknesses" rather than developing our skills.

The bottom line is that we can spend a lot of time and energy achieving a small amount of improvement in something that we are not naturally meant to be good at, or we can spend less time excelling at the things that are our true gifts.  It's that whole 80/20 thing.

This is coming from a guy who has been doing this diy for 10 years now, and I still don't really know ohms law. :-D

Here's one I think I've posted before.

Perhaps not a good example of them peddling out and out lies (or maybe it is!?!?! ), but it proves beyond no doubt that their 'news' is just really sensationalist bollocks designed to whip middle england into some kind of hysterical frenzy :

AGE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-449783/Women-birth-age-30-double-risk-breast-cancer.html
    AIR POLLUTION http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-358875/Pollution-cars-linked-child-cancer.html
    AIR TRAVEL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-200443/Frequent-fliers-raise-cancer-risk.html and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-591109/Cancer-risk-frequent-fliers.html
    ALCOHOL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-147083/Drink-day-increases-breast-cancer-risk.html and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-471910/Bowel-cancer-danger-just-glass-wine-day.html
    ALLERGIES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-324732/Child-allergies-raise-cancer-risk.html
    ARTIFICIAL FLAVOURS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-55023/Cancer-causing-chemicals-soy-sauce.html
    ARTIFICIAL LIGHT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-391267/Artificial-light-increases-breast-cancer-risk.html
    ASBESTOS (as if it wasn’t bad enough already) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1170584/Asbestos-schools-kill-pupils-warns-teacher-dying-lung-cancer.html
    ASPIRIN http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-205490/Asprin-link-cancer-risk.html
    BABIES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-157683/Birth-size-link-breast-cancer.html
    BABY BOTTLES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1038697/EU-rejects-ban-baby-bottles-linked-early-puberty-breast-cancer-miscarriage-infertility.html
    BABY FOOD http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-199887/Baby-food-cancer-alert.html
    BACON http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1102368/Additives-used-bacon-ham-chicken-make-cancers-grow.html
    BARBEQUES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-326153/Australians-warned-backyard-cancer-risk.html
    BEEF http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-393666/Alarm-beef-link-breast-cancer.html
    BEER http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1161843/Just-pint-beer-day-raise-risk-prostate-cancer.html
    BEING A BLACK PERSON http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1064547/Black-men-times-likely-prostate-cancer.html and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-508753/Black-women-develop-breast-cancer-decades-earlier-white-women.html
    BEING A WOMAN http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-63976/Cancer-risk-higher-women-smokers.html
    BEING A MAN http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-306543/Men-twice-likely-die-cancer-women.html
    BEING SOUTHERN http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1027331/Why-affluent-women-South-likely-die-breast-cancer.html
    BISCUITS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-126342/Cancer-foods-avoid.html
    BLOWJOBS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-453843/Oral-sex-cause-throat-cancer.html
    BRAS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-182370/Is-bra-bad-you.html
    BREAD http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-411506/White-bread-increases-cancer-risk.html
    BREAST FEEDING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-178756/Whos-risk-breast-cancer.html
    BREAST IMPLANTS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-41443/Breast-implants-cancer-scare.html
    BROKEN HEARTS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450049/How-heart-broken-grief-send-early-grave.html
    BUBBLE BATH http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-403703/Is-bubble-bath-safe.html
    BURGERS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-467360/Cancer-scare-food-colour-added-sausages-burgers.html
    CAFFINE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1127473/Coffee-raise-child-cancer-risk-New-evidence-caffeine-damage-babies-DNA.html
    CALCUIM http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1052127/Fatal-cancer-risk-men-high-blood-calcium-levels-say-US-researchers.html
    CANDLE-LIT DINNERS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1207726/Candles-release-scents-laced-cancer-chemicals-warn-scientists.html#ixzz0dufFps6a
    CANNED FOOD http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-44676/Gender-bending-chemicals-tin-cans.html
    CARBOHYDRATES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-313227/Low-carb-diets-beat-breast-cancer.html
    CARS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-358875/Pollution-cars-linked-child-cancer.html
    CEREAL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-115696/How-safe-favourite-foods.html
    CHEESE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1002424/Italy-shuts-mozzarella-production-toxin-fears-spread.html
    CHICKEN http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-429303/Families-risk-toxic-imported-foods.html
    CHILDLESSNESS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-474820/SUZANNE-MOORE-Im-sick-told-fault.html
    CHILDREN http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-506501/Prostate-risk-having-family-according-new-study.html
    CHILDREN’S FOOD http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-201390/Health-warning-childrens-food.html
    CHILLIS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-347287/Cancer-checks-spices-new-food-dyes-alert.html
    CHINESE MEDICINE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-75547/Warming-cancer-risk-Chinese-medicines.html
    CHIPS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-487571/Parents-told-chips-cause-cancer.html
    CHLORINE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-431777/Chlorine-bathwater-linked-cancer.html
    CHOCLATE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-386625/Cancer-fears-chocolate-snacks.html
    CITY LIVING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-496495/City-life-blamed-higher-risk-breast-cancer.html
    CLIMATE CHANGE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-452789/Warmer-climate-mean-thousands-deaths-skin-cancer.html
    COCA COLA http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-337178/Carrot-day-reduces-cancer-risk.html
    COD LIVER OIL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-379918/Cancer-fears-cod-liver-oil-capsules.html
    COFFEE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3027/How-healthy-cup-coffee.html
    CONSTAPATION http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-193698/Atkins-diet-cancer-risk.html
    CONTRACEPTIVE PILLS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-181273/Cancer-risk-45-higher-Pill.html
    COOKING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-382571/Frying-increase-cancer-risk.html
    CORDLESS PHONES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-515970/After-cancer-warnings-mobiles-home-phone-putting-health-danger.html
    CRAYONS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6706/Safety-alert-best-selling-crayons.html
    CURRY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-342632/Cancer-dye-Grossman-curry-sauce.html
    DEODRANT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-205705/Deodorants-linked-cancer.html
    DIETING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-73056/Is-diet-lifestyle-putting-risk-breast-cancer.html
    DOGS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-490581/Can-dogs-breast-cancer-Bizarre-medical-theories-experts-claim-actually-true.html
    EGGS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-50995/Cancer-chemicals-eggs.html
    ELECTRICITY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-449679/Power-lines-link-cancer-new-alert.html
    ENGLISH BREAKFAST http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1049142/Traditional-English-fry-raise-risk-bowel-cancer-63-cent.html
    FACEBOOK http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1149207/How-using-Facebook-raise-risk-cancer.html
    FALSE NAILS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1174768/Having-nails-skin-cancer-doctors-warn-women.html
    FATHERHOOD http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-506501/Prostate-risk-having-family-according-new-study.html
    FIBRE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4903/Fibre-cancer-risk-warning.html
    FISH http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-117840/Fish-cancer-scare.html
    FLIP FLOPS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1025915/Wearing-FLIP-FLOPS-skin-cancer-doctors-warn.html
    FLY SPRAY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-459938/Using-pesticide-sprays-home-double-risk-brain-tumours.html
    FRUIT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-371260/Breast-cancer-drug-cuts-death-risk.html
    GARDENS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-326153/Australians-warned-backyard-cancer-risk.html
    GRAPEFRUIT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-468559/Eating-grapefruit-increase-breast-cancer-risk-third.html
    HAIR DYE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1017259/How-using-hair-dye-increase-risk-cancer.html
    HAM http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-490845/Is-safe-eat-Cancer-report-adds-bacon-ham-drink-danger-list.html
    HEIGHT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1064454/Bigger-taller-baby-girls-higher-risk-breast-cancer-says-study.html
    HONEY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-429303/Families-risk-toxic-imported-foods.html
    HOT DRINKS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-115696/How-safe-favourite-foods.html
    HRT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1214782/HRT-increases-risk-dying-lung-cancer.html#ixzz0dueJ7qOY
    INTERNET http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-312505/Cancer-patients-risk-websites.html
    IVF http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-148228/How-IVF-raises-cancer-risks.html
    KIDNEY TRANSPLATS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-459097/TV-prize-kidney-carries-risk-cancer.html
    LAMB http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-446559/Red-meat-link-higher-risk-breast-cancer.html
    LARGE HEADS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-370870/Big-headed-babies-prone-cancer.html
    LEFT-HANDEDNESS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-363477/Left-handers-likely-breast-cancer.html
    LIPSTICK http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-499967/Is-lipstick-giving-cancer.html
    LIVER TRANSPLANTS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-207838/Cancer-liver-transplant-killed-husband.html
    MENOPAUSE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-395201/Weight-gain-menopause-increases-breast-cancer-risk.html
    MENSTRUATION http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-68946/Do-women-need-periods.html
    METAL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1081692/The-metals-daily-glass-wine-linked-cancer-Parkinsons.html
    MILK http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-328863/Milk-linked-ovarian-cancer.html
    MOBILE PHONES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-473553/Orange-remove-mobile-mast-tower-doom-cancer-rate-soared.html
    MODERN LIVING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-474157/Modern-living-blame-cancer-epidemic.html
    MONEY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1025375/Wealthy-background-raise-risk-cancer-teenagers.html
    MORPHINE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1230208/Pain-drug-morphine-cause-cancer-spread.html#ixzz0dudlHqN2
    MOUTHWASH http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1113422/Mouthwash-causes-oral-cancer-pulled-supermarkets-say-experts.html
    NUCLEAR POWER (there is no hint of irony in this article) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-42066/New-study-links-nuclear-sites-cancer.html
    OBESITY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-245997/Obesity-raises-risk-cancer.html
    OESTROGEN http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4098/Oestrogen-link-breast-cancer.html
    OLDER FATHERs http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1223025/Why-older-fathers-likely-children-genetic-disorders.html#ixzz0dudLlJsP
    PASTRY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-115696/How-safe-favourite-foods.html
    PEANUT BUTTER http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164417/Food-watchdog-warning-peanut-butter-brand-containing-cancer-causing-fungus.html
    PERFUME http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1051130/How-perfumes-scented-creams-make-unborn-baby-infertile.html
    PICKLES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-115696/How-safe-favourite-foods.html
    PIZZA http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-341698/New-food-dye-warning.html
    PLASTIC BAGS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1207840/Plastic-decomposes-sea-releases-cancer-causing-chemicals-study-warns.html#ixzz0duexZlFs
    PORK http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1093039/After-alert-Irish-pork-safe-beef.html
    POTATOES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-115037/Cancer-chemical-link-cooked-food.html
    POVERTY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-474820/SUZANNE-MOORE-Im-sick-told-fault.html
    PREGNANCY http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-82458/Breast-cancer-risk-career-women.html
    RADIOACTIVITY (again, just no irony whatsoever) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-421140/As-radioactive-spy-buried-bar-staff-served-facing-cancer-risk.html
    RICE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-444222/Rice-tainted-arsenic-raises-risk-cancer.html
    SAUSAGES http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-550729/Why-eating-just-sausage-day-raises-cancer-risk-20-cent.html
    RETIREMENT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1220446/Oh-Work-good-especially-youve-retired.html#ixzz0ducbviCE
    SEX http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-191219/Did-sex-cancer.html
    SHAVING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-206459/Shaving-raise-cancer-risk.html
    SKIING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-206243/Skiers-warned-cancer-risk.html
    SOUP http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1132814/Salty-soups-increase-cancer-risk-says-expert.html
    SPACE TRAVEL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1015482/How-astronauts-risk-cancer--premature-ageing--travelling-space.html
    SUN CREAM http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-592076/Cancer-fear-childrens-sun-creams.html
    TALCUM POWDER http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1063040/Cancer-alert-talc-Women-using-powder-day-risk.html
    TEA http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-87131/Too-tea-treble-cancer-risk-women.html
    TEEN SEX http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1237530/Girls-sex-teens-greater-risk-developing-cervical-cancer.html#ixzz0dudvXOF7
    VITAMINS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-320006/Vitamin-pills-cause-early-deaths.html
    WATER http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13620/Cancer-link-tap-water-radon-hotspots.html
    WI-FI http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-456534/The-classroom-cancer-risk-wi-fi-internet.html
    WORCESTERSHIRE SAUCE http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-338899/Dye-alert-spreads-school-meals.html
    WORKING http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1031934/Why-men-desk-jobs-higher-risk-prostate-cancer.html
    X-RAYS http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-207035/X-rays-bring-risk-cancer.html

I too suck at debate, and I feel that I'm a relatively smart guy.  In a debate, a few scattered factoids or references to "a study" will always trump a lifetime of generalized non-specific observations and deductions.  Just remember that might doesn't make right. 

How am I supposed to win a fight with someone claiming the world will end in 77 days because they can site biblical verse out the wazoo that supports their claims?  The answer is "I can't", even though I am 100% sure that this "proven" scenario of theirs will not come true, based upon all of the general observations I have made in my life about how things work.  I can't site counter verse, I can't argue on the basis of an incorrect interpretation of the verse based on historical context, I can't argue on the imprecise translations of the verse from the original scrolls, and I can't disprove numerology in a short argument.  It's simply not my fight to win, and I don't care (or at least I shouldn't, because sometimes it makes me feel stupid too).

There is a concept called the "information advantage" (and no, I don't remember where I read about this concept... ).  It's used to win arguments.  The side with the most information about an argument wins the argument regardless of the validity of their stance.  I'll steal a partial Zappa quote here because it applies:

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth."

Consul said:

I really hate getting into debates about politics or religion with friends, largely because I'm not so good at it.

A friend of mine posted a link to the Daily Mail about how wrong the government was stop flights over the Atlantic due to the ash cloud, claiming it was not as bad as thought and that their carelessness caused all the stranded people and millions lost, and so on.

Click to expand...

Sounds like the rant of a typical capitalist type.

Make money at any cost.

BP would be a good example of this way of thinking.

Mark

Consul said:

I really hate getting into debates about politics or religion with friends, largely because I'm not so good at it.

A friend of mine posted a link to the Daily Mail about how wrong the government was stop flights over the Atlantic due to the ash cloud, claiming it was not as bad as thought and that their carelessness caused all the stranded people and millions lost, and so on. I made a comment that I don't trust much of anything posted in the Daily Mail, and he then eviscerated me for not having any evidence to back that up.

Well, first of all, I don't trust any newspaper without any corroboration. But second of all, I wasn't able to cite any specific cases of the Daily Mail being untrustworthy. To me, though, the issue is bigger-picture than that. Like the difference between a cult and a religion, there is no single defining characteristic, but instead a bunch of smaller issues that add up. In the case of the Daily Mail, I've seen a number of headlines, all of which were designed to instill fear and anger in a way that makes me wonder what they're up to. Add it all up and it just smells funny.

Am I off-base with this thinking?

Click to expand...

Here's something very simple to remember and that is if you haven't found out already that we all bias to a certain degree or so and many media outlets will play into a particular bias whether or not the story is true or "half true"

Whether if its crap about how the president wouldn't allow Franklyn Graham to pray inside the white house during his visit or some other crap about how some democrat voted with the fascist republican war hawks on more war funding  when instead that money could be spent on something here at home to which is just as equally worthless.

Basically there's nothing more idiotic than some yank such as myself or other yanks having a debate on politics for us yanks are too ignorant and misinformed to have ANY sort of logical or valid point to make.

In conclusion, let's help out our fellow yanks and dissuade them from talking politics, let's leave that for the Brits to take care of because they may not think of themselves as much more articulate but I certainly do ;D


Besides, why would you want to bother debating when you can listen to some real professionals???




;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xUy2inkGHQ&feature=related


Cheers,

The bigger point that hits me is that getting trustworthy information is very difficult. I never really believed in the notion that there was this grand master plan to control the media, but as I got older and researched more and more things, I now do.

Everyone should continue to research and read as much as possible. There are many things out there we're  "not supposed to know about"...

Mbira said:

I've been reading a good book called "First Break All The Rules" which, incidentally, is about being a good manager.  They talk about how great managers realize that people have natural gifts and abilities, and how in our society, often we are told to spend a lot of time "improving on our weaknesses" rather than developing our skills.

The bottom line is that we can spend a lot of time and energy achieving a small amount of improvement in something that we are not naturally meant to be good at, or we can spend less time excelling at the things that are our true gifts.  It's that whole 80/20 thing.

Click to expand...

Simple, but so true.  Figure out what you're good at and get busy.  Forget all those self-help guys and don't psych yourself out.  No one knows everything or is good at everything.

riggler said:

The bigger point that hits me is that getting trustworthy information is very difficult. I never really believed in the notion that there was this grand master plan to control the media, but as I got older and researched more and more things, I now do.

Everyone should continue to research and read as much as possible. There are many things out there we're  "not supposed to know about"...

Click to expand...

Eric Alterman writes very well on this and a number of other related subjects.  Very worthwhile reading.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Liberal-Media-Truth-about/dp/0465001777

A lot of the purposeful manipulation stands out like sore thumb and sometimes it's really comical - sometimes disturbing.

I was following a certain type of 'behind the scenes' opinion shaping that was going on during the months before the last presidential election.  One of my favorite gems was this piece of crap that aired on PBS during that critical period before the Democratic nominee was selected.  I think Edwards may have already pulled out by then leaving it between Clinton and Obama.

http://www.amazon.com/Spartans-Bettany-Hughes/dp/B0001KNHTA

And as ENS pointed out - the choice of a British narrator did lend a certain brand of credibility for mainstream American audiences - if you were looking the other way.

During that same week things piled up some more:

http://www.themoviespoiler.com/Spoilers/meetthespartans.html 

The History(I often call it the ReWriting History) Channel is notorious for airing this type of thing - seemingly in the guise of real history  - which they are careful that it is - just more careful to make sure that it has the right twist .  The ones I remember most were at least two different 'docs' on John Wilkes Booth during the period when  Obama/McCain were squaring off pretty heavily.  Those gave me an uneasy feeling as did the several few particularly graphic specials they aired on certain racial hate groups during the same time frame.

Sorting through misinformation whether it's intentional or not is a full time job and I am actually thankful for the amount that exists because it helps in defining who you are and are not.

Consul, as for  feeling that you're not good at arguing politics - after watching otherwise normal sane folks turn psychotic during the 08 election over any number of issues - I'm of the current opinion that talking(much less arguing) politics can simply make people crazy just like drugs or alcohol.  If you have a natural inclination to shy away from it - I say:  wise instinct at work. 

The DM contributes nothing positive to society whatsoever. It's a ghastly, right wing tabloid with hideous, vile contributors. It's also got a track record for homophobia. All it does is create fear. Nasty...very nasty. Cunts.

Justin