helterbelter

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 06:29:57 AM »
Before you start building the JLM's, there's one thing you really should take into consideration :
Heat. In case you're able to put the PSU in a different room, there's not a real problem, but in case you must place the psu in your mixing room,then you won't regret to use JLM's with the negative doubler rail mod. It really makes a big difference regarding heatproduction, and even more if you're going to use 6 of them.

Also, one thing wasn't very clear to me yet : how many modules are you going to use ? and which ? You mentioned 16 channels, but, how ? 16 stereochannels or 8 stereo channels ? Are you planning to add micpre's ? (if so, you'll need at least one JLM with the normal doubler rail.)

So, let us know the layout which you want.

Another thing : The bays in a 5K console aren't seperated. Indeed, there are powerdistributors in each bay, that have got it's own cable that goes to the powertower, but they are all connected somehow. I have the documents for the powersupply, but not in digital form. I'll make a simple diagram of how it's connected later today,


regardless to what your choice of psu building will be,

here's JLM negative doubler mod :

reverse the direction of the components shown. NOTE !!: C1 and C2 must be reversed as well !.


wire the 337 like this :


As said earlier : use a dual 15v torroid, and preferrably add the large diodebridge (not for the V1 version.) Set the +ve's to +18, -ve's to -18, and the negative doubler to -24v.

Here are a few pics of how I recently built a psu for a lunchbox I'll be building soon (summingbox+521+522 EQ+520 buscompressor). The PSU with the mod stays cool. I've built a similar PSU, but then without the mod, for a Neve channelstrip project, and that one gets pretty warm.

The enclosure is used, taken from a defective electric wheelchair battery charger.






kante1603

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2011, 07:37:03 AM »

Another thing : The bays in a 5K console aren't seperated. Indeed, there are powerdistributors in each bay, that have got it's own cable that goes to the powertower, but they are all connected somehow.
Paul,you´re right-they are connected somehow as in our cadacs and then distributed;had a look on the connector pinouts.
Quote
regardless to what your choice of psu building will be,

here's JLM negative doubler mod :

Very nice explanation,thanks for this!

At how many VAs should the transformer be rated (if 15-0-15) approximately to get the full current of the board (for two times +18 and -18Vs)?
If center tapped -is the bridge still set to doubler?Just because Joe told me I had to cut it when I did the "normal" mod to get a lower voltage from the 48V rail.

Oh,concerning heatsinking,Joe´s heatsink-Calculator is  a supertool-I always use it!:
http://www.jlmaudio.com/ACDC%20Calculator.htm

Here´s one I have done for another project:



Cheers,

Udo.

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2011, 08:39:36 AM »
Cool thanks,

sorry i should have been a bit clearer from the start what my intentions were.

I have 8x 521 stereo input modules, 8x 522 stereo 3 band Eq's that i pland to make the mixer from (using one of the 4x 552 modules as the summing Amp)

I also have 2x spare 522 stereo 3 band and 2x 502 4 band mono Eq's which i may rack seperatley and sell off, and i may do the same with the remaining 3 552's

Heres a pic of what i have: (not including the 552's as they are not here yet)



I have just hooked up and tested one of the 521 stereo inout modules and here are the current draw figures

+18V = 0.157A
-18V = 0A
-24V = 0.06A

it doesnt seem to make a difference if i put 0dbu tone through the module or not as to the current draw.

There is more draw on the -24 the more of the button are depressed so i tested with them all engaged.






kante1603

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2011, 09:51:01 AM »
I have just hooked up and tested one of the 521 stereo inout modules and here are the current draw figures

+18V = 0.157A
-18V = 0A
-24V = 0.06A

Hi Neil,  no current on the -18V?

Hmmmm...have looked at the schemo of a SL501(mono input) and found that there´s -18V needed-but I don´t know the 521 as we didn´t have any stereo-I/Ps on our console.
But the +18 seem very similar to the other guy´s measurements (he had 170mAs) and on the -24 V he had 20mAs,may be lights off?
Looks like you´re on the way!
So in case of the -18V is rated at the same as the positive (can´t be zero in my opinion) you definetely will not need 8 PSUs or so-cool!I think you can run your 8 x 521s from 1 powerstation!(4 Channels of 170mAs per rail=680mAs,and you´ve got two of them each positive and negative per psu, so ending up in some 1,3As for the positive 18V rails,maybe the same for -18V and some for the logic means lower than 3As-as said the max. current shared between the rails is 6As in theory-nice,and still headroom left!That seems to proof the guy running 8 modules from 1 psu.
And the EQ modules seem to suck much less than I/P modules.

Good job Neil,please keep us informed!

Udo.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 10:18:19 AM by kante1603 »

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2011, 12:32:56 PM »
Ok ive just hooked up a SL502 Mono EQ to the bench power supplies and im getting the following readings for current:

+18v = 0.040A
-18V = 0A
-24v = 0.05A

Still no Current draw on the -18v  ??? im going to swap the 2x 18V supplies over in case there is a problem with the power supply giving current readings.

I wanted to hook up a 522 stereo Eq but ive just realised i dont have the drawings/Pinout info for it  :'(

Do you guys have it you could scan/email me? nhester at gmail dot com

I have all the SL521 drawings and some SL502 info i can offer in return attached here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/Racking%20SSL%20SL502%20Mono%20EQ.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20PinOut%20%26%20Reference.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20io%20Logic%20%26%20Routing.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20LineUP.pdf

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2011, 12:40:14 PM »
I have just hooked up and tested one of the 521 stereo inout modules and here are the current draw figures

+18V = 0.157A
-18V = 0A
-24V = 0.06A

Hi Neil,  no current on the -18V?

Hmmmm...have looked at the schemo of a SL501(mono input) and found that there´s -18V needed-but I don´t know the 521 as we didn´t have any stereo-I/Ps on our console.
But the +18 seem very similar to the other guy´s measurements (he had 170mAs) and on the -24 V he had 20mAs,may be lights off?
Looks like you´re on the way!
So in case of the -18V is rated at the same as the positive (can´t be zero in my opinion) you definetely will not need 8 PSUs or so-cool!I think you can run your 8 x 521s from 1 powerstation!(4 Channels of 170mAs per rail=680mAs,and you´ve got two of them each positive and negative per psu, so ending up in some 1,3As for the positive 18V rails,maybe the same for -18V and some for the logic means lower than 3As-as said the max. current shared between the rails is 6As in theory-nice,and still headroom left!That seems to proof the guy running 8 modules from 1 psu.
And the EQ modules seem to suck much less than I/P modules.

Good job Neil,please keep us informed!

Udo.

Cool this is looking good then, i should be able to use 1 powerstation for the 8 input modules and another for the 8 EQ's

so should i go for a 15-0-15 torroid at 225VA based on my previous post about determining the VA value ?

Helterbelter, thanks for posting the Mod i will certainly do that one!

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2011, 01:02:18 PM »
ok ive swapped the PSU's round there does indeed seem to be a problem with the current readout of the top 18 v PSU when i switched it over to now run the +18V it still shows 0Amps still

But the new -18V supply (previously showing +18V) is also at 0Amps until i push the Eq's dis-engage button and bypass the Eq.
Then is shows a draw of 0.025Amps so still a tiny value and i should be fine with the current course im on  ;D

On a slightly different note,
The Chassis i bought (from MODU Shop) has plenty of room to fit the power supplies inside with good ventillation:



Im just drawing a front panel right now with "Front Panel Designer" to get made
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 01:06:39 PM by DigitalMetal »

helterbelter

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2011, 01:05:46 PM »
Yes, I have the docs. I'll email them to you later

At how many VAs should the transformer be rated (if 15-0-15) approximately to get the full current of the board (for two times +18 and -18Vs)?
If center tapped -is the bridge still set to doubler?Just because Joe told me I had to cut it when I did the "normal" mod to get a lower voltage from the 48V rail.

Yes, the bridge is set to doubler. Thanks for reminding me to mention this : Don't set it to tripler ! you'll probably damage a few components.
Regarding the calculations for the VA.... I'm always guessing (not very pro, huh!), since I always end up getting it wrong with my calculations, haha. I'd say 3Amps x30v = 90 VA.

Here´s one I have done for another project:

Very nice !


Regarding powering the thing : As said earlier, in an original 5k, the power cables go from the PSUtower to each bay, and are internally distributed.
However, the powertower is setup like this  (this is just a sketch to give you an idea):


About powering your summingmixer :
You could power the mixer in sections, but, in the original console, the bays are connected vertically, and you should do the same. (because the 522 and the 521 are connected via S502 (a switchsignal is sent from the 522 to route the audio from the 521 to the 522 and back).....
Now, I don't know if you have original buscards. If so, you'd have to connect 4x521 and 4x 522 to one single powerline. That means you'd have to use 2 JLM's for each powerline. (whether you'd be using modified JLM PSU's, or the PSU's with a raw unregulated -24v)

You could connect the JLM's to power the whole unit. Then it'd be something like this :

Recently, I discussed with a colleague, about connecting the voltagelines of different regulators, he mentioned using 0.1 ohm resistors instead of diodes. I don't know what will be best, maybe the experts here will chime in ?

So, all in all,  4 JLM's will give more than enough juice to power your summingbox.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 01:07:56 PM by helterbelter »

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2011, 02:21:56 PM »
Yes, I have the docs. I'll email them to you later

Great, thanks !

Regarding the calculations for the VA.... I'm always guessing (not very pro, huh!), since I always end up getting it wrong with my calculations, haha. I'd say 3Amps x30v = 90 VA.

Where did the 30V come from?  ???

is the equation i was working to completely wrong?



Regarding powering the thing : As said earlier, in an original 5k, the power cables go from the PSUtower to each bay, and are internally distributed.
However, the powertower is setup like this  (this is just a sketch to give you an idea):


About powering your summingmixer :
You could power the mixer in sections, but, in the original console, the bays are connected vertically, and you should do the same. (because the 522 and the 521 are connected via S502 (a switchsignal is sent from the 522 to route the audio from the 521 to the 522 and back).....
Now, I don't know if you have original buscards. If so, you'd have to connect 4x521 and 4x 522 to one single powerline. That means you'd have to use 2 JLM's for each powerline. (whether you'd be using modified JLM PSU's, or the PSU's with a raw unregulated -24v)

You could connect the JLM's to power the whole unit. Then it'd be something like this :

Recently, I discussed with a colleague, about connecting the voltagelines of different regulators, he mentioned using 0.1 ohm resistors instead of diodes. I don't know what will be best, maybe the experts here will chime in ?

So, all in all,  4 JLM's will give more than enough juice to power your summingbox.

Ok thats quite complex, and had only planned to use 1 JLM powerstation per rack of 8 modules after todays current draw research/tests,
To be honest i hadnt got as far as thinking about the switch signals,
Do i need to wire them?

I dont have bus cards and was planning to wire the 522 Eq's into the 521 input modules on their normal position between the filters - Pins 8c/8c 14a/14c on the DIN121 connector of the SL521 see here:



am i completely wrong with this?

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2011, 02:44:46 PM »
Ok after reading your post a few times i think i understand what you are saying,
So i just need to know if its ok to link multiple regulators together using the diode/resistor methoood you describe.


kante1603

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2011, 03:23:02 PM »
Yes, the bridge is set to doubler. Thanks for reminding me to mention this : Don't set it to tripler ! you'll probably damage a few components.
Regarding the calculations for the VA.... I'm always guessing (not very pro, huh!), since I always end up getting it wrong with my calculations, haha. I'd say 3Amps x30v = 90 VA. 

Hahaha,that´s the same way I did it-until I found Joe´s heatsink calculator-this gives you the needed transfomer-VAs at the left bottom of the page ;D

Oh,and here´s an old quote from Joe´s build thread at the JLM site for AC/DC and POWERSTATIONs:it´s about  a guy who was asking for how to increase the currents for his (+/-16Vs) builds in a 500/51X-Rack when wanting to use JLM pcbs:

Best to fit everything and adjust the spare rails. We use the powerstation kit with both +rails and -rails in parallel with 3A sharing diodes for running our 11 way 500 racks. Adjust the power rails to 16.7v to make up for the diode loss. You can then run 2 x 11 way with most 500 modules.

So using the diodes and set the rails to +/- 18,7Vs should work,no?

I also have no bus panels same as Neil;therefore we should talk about wiring modules directly I think.

Very kind of you explaining how the original psu towers worked;now I remember parts of it (I´m getting old) ;)

Cheers,

Udo.

helterbelter

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2011, 04:05:29 PM »


Where did the 30V come from?  ???

is the equation i was working to completely wrong?

Probably not, I always end up with the wrong formulas, like I said, haha. My 30 came from the 2x15, but the JLM calculator showed me that the VA's mentioned on trannies will be for each secondary. (I asked this a few times in the electronics parts store, and each time I asked people replied: " eeehhhh I don't know.")
So, 15Vx3Amps is 45 VA.

To be honest i hadnt got as far as thinking about the switch signals,
Do i need to wire them?
Yes, otherwise the EQ's won't work in conjunction with the SL521.

I dont have bus cards and was planning to wire the 522 Eq's into the 521 input modules on their normal position between the filters - Pins 8c/8c 14a/14c on the DIN121 connector of the SL521 see here:

am i completely wrong with this?

No, you're not wrong, but you're just missing a bit. Usually, the link between the inputmodules and eq/dynamic modules is a 10 conductor flatcable, labeled S502. This runs both the audio and the switchlines.

Hahaha,that´s the same way I did it-until I found Joe´s heatsink calculator-this gives you the needed transfomer-VAs at the left bottom of the page ;D
.................................

So using the diodes and set the rails to +/- 18,7Vs should work,no?

I also have no bus panels same as Neil;therefore we should talk about wiring modules directly I think.


Exactly the reason why I don't want to show my calculation expertise here, hahahaha ! Fortunately, 3x30 is 90, so at least I got something right, even though the formula was wrong !  ;)

The voltages to set, totally depend to the voltagedrop of the diodes used, but, you probably can't use a diode on the 0v line. That's why I put a 0.1 ohm resistor there.
Can somebody confirm this ?


helterbelter

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2011, 04:33:23 PM »

I wanted to hook up a 522 stereo Eq but ive just realised i dont have the drawings/Pinout info for it  :'(


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/Racking%20SSL%20SL502%20Mono%20EQ.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20PinOut%20%26%20Reference.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20io%20Logic%20%26%20Routing.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20LineUP.pdf

You're missing a bit info on the 521. No audio schematics, and the connector cross reference is incomplete.

I just sent you an email about with the 522 docs.

helterbelter

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2011, 05:33:26 PM »
even though I'm not planning to show my 5K build yet, here's a picture I made last year of a work in progress. Its set up is pretty different by now, and the looks are even more different, I couldn't resist to show at least something.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 05:40:33 PM by helterbelter »

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2011, 06:22:43 PM »

I wanted to hook up a 522 stereo Eq but ive just realised i dont have the drawings/Pinout info for it  :'(


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/Racking%20SSL%20SL502%20Mono%20EQ.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20PinOut%20%26%20Reference.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20io%20Logic%20%26%20Routing.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7388077/SL521%20LineUP.pdf

You're missing a bit info on the 521. No audio schematics, and the connector cross reference is incomplete.

I just sent you an email about with the 522 docs.

Thanks so much for the 522 Docs !

Do you have the bits im missing from the 521 by any chance?  :D

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2011, 06:29:22 PM »
even though I'm not planning to show my 5K build yet, here's a picture I made last year of a work in progress. Its set up is pretty different by now, and the looks are even more different, I couldn't resist to show at least something.  ;D


Wow thats very impressive, looks like you have 3 separate sections there including the AUX modules and faders and centre sections !

when you feel like detailing it all id love to know how you have it all set up.

For me i dont really intend to use mine as a mixer as such i will let Protools handle all the mixing duties along with total recall and my setup will be a glorified summing bus with EQ and inserts i also have some other compressors and EQ's i might patch in via a jackfield, so mine will remain fairly modular to allow patching.

kante1603

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2011, 03:33:44 AM »
even though I'm not planning to show my 5K build yet, here's a picture I made last year of a work in progress. Its set up is pretty different by now, and the looks are even more different, I couldn't resist to show at least something.  ;D

Wow Paul-that´s great-Hartelijk gefeliciteerd!!!

Udo ;)

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2011, 04:39:31 PM »
552's have arrived  ;D

Im suprised to see only 10db of gain available, but i guess there is a fair ammount of gain built in between the input bus and output?

helterbelter

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2011, 04:49:46 PM »
Wow thats very impressive, looks like you have 3 separate sections there including the AUX modules and faders and centre sections !
More or less yes. At the time of the picture I didn't have the aux buscards, and I was busy getting the Instant Reset and routing logic to work. It didn't work out, maybe one of the logiccards had a defect, or something else was wrong, I don't know, but it was too complex for me, so i decided to ditch that part. Hopefully I'm able to add a battery backup to the console, but that's not an issue for  now. Anyway, back to the picture : I didn't have enough routingswitches for the subgroups either, so i used 10k resistors for this purpose instead. Also, last January I sold a few of the channels, and  I have placed 8 stereochannels without line amps or EQ's instead. So, Right now I have 4 monochannels consisting of 501/542/513/507/506, 4 stereochannels consisting of 521/522/523/527/506, 8 stereochannels consisting of just a 527/513 (or523)/506, into 3 subgroups (524/523/522/506) into a 557 mastermodule. Auxes: 6 mono plus 2 stereo, and 2x IMO for monitoring, and 546+555 for communication.

And...... a few special features coming up..... But that's something I won't unveil yet, whahahaaa !  8)


when you feel like detailing it all id love to know how you have it all set up.
That'll take weeks just to tell. It took me a few years to figure things out. (also because it took me a few years to gather all the documents needed, haha)

For me i dont really intend to use mine as a mixer as such i will let Protools handle all the mixing duties along with total recall and my setup will be a glorified summing bus with EQ and inserts i also have some other compressors and EQ's i might patch in via a jackfield, so mine will remain fairly modular to allow patching.

Well, I think this is just how far you should go. If I should start over, I'd do just like you're doing it, and also just as much. 8 stereochannels into 1 stereobus. What more do you need in these days of DAWs ?!?



Wow Paul-that´s great-Hartelijk gefeliciteerd!!!

Udo ;)

Hartelijk dank !  :D

helterbelter

Re: Mini SSL 5000 Mixer build thread
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2011, 04:51:47 PM »
552's have arrived  ;D

Im suprised to see only 10db of gain available, but i guess there is a fair ammount of gain built in between the input bus and output?

The +10dB of gain is not the summingstage, it's the outputfader.


 

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