marantz 2254

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ward

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2004
Messages
348
Location
Belgium
I have a marantz 2254 receiver that was missing the pcb for the phono preamp.
So this weekend I made a clone and wired it in.
2254phonopreampschem.jpg

I used BC550 for the 2SC1000 and BD548 for the 2SC458 transistors because I couldn't find the originals.

And now I have a weird phenomenon;
I used a technics SL10 to test it.
When the needle is on the record and playing the sound is fine.
When I stop it and the needle goes off the record I have a motorboating sound like in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3luvdK8uk
The earth lug from the technics is connected to the amp.
When I unplug the technics from the amp the motorboating is gone.

Anybody has any idea why this happens ?
Thanks!


 
You have C713 in there?

If so, try making it 1,000uFd.

Not helping? Make R703 4K7.

This is a VERY complicated (perhaps over-complicated) design and not a trivial analysis.
 
I did some experimenting ...

I changed the supplycap c713 to 470uFd, this did not help much.
Raising R703 to 4K7 makes a big difference, about ten times less thumping.

This is a VERY complicated (perhaps over-complicated) design and not a trivial analysis.
I confess I don't get it .  ???  I'm just cloning.

Things I forgot to mention:
I subbed H707 and H708 for 1N4148.
The double diode H709 I subbed for a double 1N4448.

The DC voltages are pretty close to the original.

 
I read that this low frequency oscillation is usually a symptom of a problem in the power supply.
So I replaced the capacitors on the P800 power supply board.
This did not change anything.

The only dc voltage which was off on the supply is the collector of H806. H809 : 1.6V instead of 0.8V.
ScreenHunter_01Apr161313.gif



Any more ideas on this ?

Could I have caused this by choosing a BC550c to replace the 2sc1000 ?
the BC550C has a Hfe of 400 to 800, the 2sc1000 is typical 300.
 
> H806. 1.6V instead of 0.8V.

I don't see any 0.8V on H806.

> Could I have caused this by choosing a BC550c to replace the 2sc1000 ?

It's possible. There's a LOT going on here, and it may always have been on-the-edge. Can you find a nice mellow 2N2222?
 
PRR said:
> H806. 1.6V instead of 0.8V.

I don't see any 0.8V on H806.
Sorry that is a typo,
I should have been :  the collector of H809 and H810 is at 1.6Vdc

PRR said:
> Could I have caused this by choosing a BC550c to replace the 2sc1000 ?
It's possible. There's a LOT going on here, and it may always have been on-the-edge. Can you find a nice mellow 2N2222?
I don't have a 2N2222.
May I ask what makes it 'mellow'?

I replaced the bc550c with BC184 and this did not solve the problem completely but seemed to make the amplifier more stable.
The thumping is slower and can be allmost trimmed away with the trimpots.
 
I think I have it sorted.
I replaced all four BC550c (2sc1000 original) with BC184.

I'm gonna take it home for final (louder) testing.
 
RIAA and similar preamps have a ton of bass boost, and so are more susceptible to motorboating. I don't see a lot of local NFB, so the gain/hfe of the transistors could well be a factor.

--mark
 
> I don't see a lot of local NFB

You usually don't, in a 3-transistor phono stage, you need all you can get to work the overall NFB.

But what small local NFB this has, don't seem to stabilize against device variation. R712 does nothing for H701 emitter, R728 is moot against H705's B-E....

What is the overall picture?

H701 has as little as 620 ohms in its emitter, an obvious 2.2Meg in collector, and probably ~~1Meg of loading from the next stage; audio gain is very high, 500-1000.

H703+H705 form a Darlington with gain approaching 3300/47 or 70.

Overall forward gain is around 50,000.

It's a 3-stage amplifier and that would be HF-unstable under NFB. You would expect a few-pFd compensation cap from H705 collector to H701 collector or H701 collector to ground, to shape the open-loop frequency response for stability. I don't see that, unless via C707 through H703 C(cb). It may have "worked out" with the specific transistors used

The 1KHz gain is near 50 so the bass gain is near 500. It's got 40dB NFB down around 50Hz. Since there "must" be overall open-loop roll-off, we might assume 40dB-60dB NFB all the way up.

Tons of overall NFB.

But is it "N"? The wobbles suggest it goes Positive at subsonic.

I have fought another topology but this is different. Took a while to see it.

Consider C714 against its (unknown) load, C703 against H701 Emitter, and impedance into H701 emitter when H701 base is held by C701. C714 and C703 obviously form two high-pass filters. The emitter of H701 is ~~2K when C701 is low-Z and some higher value when C701 goes high-Z. So the C703 pole is not simple. This is a 3-pole network. Different than the C-R-C-R-C-R network in a Tremolo oscillator only in degree. The C701 pole is soon zeroed, so it needs a gain much more than 27 (magic number for simple C-R-C-R-C-R oscillator) to oscillate. But we do have lots of open-loop gain. More or less depending, in fact, on H701 hFE _AND_ on what is connected at J701.

> When ....the needle goes off the record

This may be a clue. Does your phonograph short the needle when the needle lifts? Some do. And for this preamp, that cartridge impedance is indirectly part of that C-R-C-R-C-R network. Un-shorted there is about 5K DCR in cartridge winding. Shorted is of course zero plus R703 470r.

In another topology I had radically different subsonic bump depending on source impedance. More resistance was better, but adds hiss. 5K is about the practical "quick fix" limit, the noise-rise at 5K is mild.

> I don't have a 2N2222. May I ask what makes it 'mellow'?

I didn't catch that you are in BC land. In the 2N series, 2N2222 is an old "computer switch", spectacular for the mid-1960s but today rather mild compared to the much higher-gain higher-speed parts we can get. BC184 is a hair hotter, but not so much as those BC550.

> I think I have it sorted.

Good, glad to hear it.
 

Attachments

  • Ward-PhonoPreamp.gif
    Ward-PhonoPreamp.gif
    19.5 KB · Views: 6

Latest posts

Back
Top