Power Switch - Front vs Back - Live vs Neutral

JohnRoberts said:

At a dealer seminar in central Mexico a Peavey dealer told me the way they can tell a product is not used, is if the ground pin hasn't been cut off yet.  :

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Ah Ah!

If I get electrocuted or killed in a house fire, I don't give a flip about insurance. 

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Sure, but what about the house is burnt during your absence, or your best friend is electrocuted? 

[/quote] I am not familiar with French mains wiring but understand RCL (like GFCI)  are used on mains branches in breaker panels in several EU nations. [/quote] RCL ?? Residual Current something? So many acronyms for essentially the same thing. We call them disjoncteur différentiel. They are installed on the panel. There is supposed to be a maximum of 8 wall-sockets on each branch, located in the same room. Daisy-chaining of earth is allowed.

Oddly when I replaced my wall oven and installed it myself (probably illegal in France),

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No, it's not illegal here as long as the line is not significantly changed and the GFCI is not tampered with.

  the instructions advised me to bootleg the oven chassis ground to neutral.

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That would be illegal; the maker could be sued for inciting to break the law.

BTW I changed the oven in my NOLA condo; I had to do some guesswork with the colors of the wire. I didn't even have a voltmeter.

> We call them disjoncteur différentiel.

AFAIK: same as a GFI or an RCB, same chip, perhaps different timing/current curve.

They were introduced in the US mainly as replacements for bath and kitchen outlets. Pushed heavily for outdoor outlets (once rare, now mandated). Once you have more than a few, it makes sense to put it in the central fusebox. Apparently in England that is where most RCBs are installed. (England also has fairly stiff limits on homeowner electrical work, and strong training for their professionals.)

*In the US* -- Bonding a cooking range shell (ground) to the center of the 115/230V split WAS fully legal and standard not too long ago. (Same on clothes-dryers.) The neutral current from a range is usually small, wire usually fat, stray neutral voltage liable to be small. This failed just often enough that in the mid-1990s the present H-H-N-G scheme was mandated for new wiring (and new 4-pin plug for plug-connected appliances).

It is unknown for a US stove to be on a GFI--- they don't sell GFI that big (in home-stores). (High-current GFI is sold for industry, but the leakage limit is higher than residential GFI.)

In nearly all Jurisdictions, if the existing 3-wire feed is in good shape and gauge, and there is no history of shocks, you DO bond N-G at the range terminals and make dinner. JR's cooker can be wired this way; it was legal for existing wiring even in high-tax New Jersey. In a couple of houses I disliked the rotten cloth covering or the piggy-back splices, ripped-out ran-new, and complied with the 4-wire system.

PRR said:

It is unknown for a US stove to be on a GFI--- they don't sell GFI that big (in home-stores). (High-current GFI is sold for industry, but the leakage limit is higher than residential GFI.)

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"stove", you mean oven/range? Here they are paired with a 32A GF breaker for the range and 20A for the oven.

alexc said:

My area has some regular transient schmutz on the mains lines ... I've yet to test what effect if any the mains filters have. I think they are used more for 'rfi' (radio frequency interference) induced into the mains ?  Fortunately, I haven't noticed any rfi type issues.

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They should theoretically help with incoming  junk provided it's it the appropriate frequency range.  But I was also thinking about them in conjunction with SMPS,  as they can throw a lot of garbage back onto the line.  It should work both ways,  at least theoretically.

abbey road d enfer said:

Ah Ah!
Sure, but what about the house is burnt during your absence,

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That would be inconvenient but I didn't pay that much for this house 30+ years ago. I would have to find somewhere else to hang.

or your best friend is electrocuted? 

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Did I tell you about my neighbor who lent me an extension cord when I was trying to power a sump pump in my yard (leaking water main). The cord had line and ground reversed. I was not dumb enough to stand in the water when plugging in the pump, but I was close and wet enough to feel a tingle in my feet as my yard got energized. 

I don't think that neighbor is smart enough to try to kill me that way, but somebody may have tried to kill him.  :

I am not familiar with French mains wiring but understand RCL (like GFCI)  are used on mains branches in breaker panels in several EU nations.  RCL ?? Residual Current something? So many acronyms for essentially the same thing. We call them disjoncteur différentiel. They are installed on the panel. There is supposed to be a maximum of 8 wall-sockets on each branch, located in the same room. Daisy-chaining of earth is allowed.
No, it's not illegal here as long as the line is not significantly changed and the GFCI is not tampered with.

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What GFCI? I don't even have grounded outlets.

That would be illegal; the maker could be sued for inciting to break the law.

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I need to check the french language instruction manual.  :

BTW I changed the oven in my NOLA condo; I had to do some guesswork with the colors of the wire. I didn't even have a voltmeter.

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At least you had 4 wires.. I only have 3.  Typically black and red are the two 120v lines (240V across them) and white is neutral. Green or bare wire would typically be safety ground.

I guess I could have called you to help me do my oven install (just a few hours drive north of NOLA)... my local electrician still hasn't returned my call.  8)

JR

> We call them disjoncteur différentiel.

Funny. Amazon France lists 30A 1p for 21 Euro, $24 my money. Home Depot usually has as low a price as anybody, and wants $38 for the same function. (Packaged differently because we have brand-specific breaker interfaces, you have plain wire and DIN mounts.) Some of that is from not having to stock 3-8 different brands of essentially the same thing (and their brand overhead, even though some of the brands are tentacles of the same corporation). Some may be the profit-oriented testing we do in the US, rather than self-certify. Still miffed.

JohnRoberts said:

The only problem I had with front power switches was a console PS where customers would place the PS on the floor under the console and turn them off by accident with their feet.

JR

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;D been there! If only we all had a big old SSL and a machine room..

JohnRoberts said:

What GFCI? I don't even have grounded outlets.

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This sends me back a half-century ago; when I was a kid, 110V was the norm, so no GFCI, no grounded outlets. When the electricity company switched to 220V, they didn't change the installation, just replaced the bulbs and rewound motors.
Ther were enough issues with unprotected installations that they had to make it mandatory.