Notre Dame Cathedral gone??

> Some pictures of the frame

Thanks.

I was wondering how that roof was framed. It is not massive by some standards. Places which need a big beam are actually framed as several beams tied together (see this image, note the Z-splice in the center piece of a 3-member beam). Some awful odd angles though.....

France may not have trees that big. Maine still does. France may not do a lot of large timber-framing today. We have folks here who do jobs like that for a living. Yes, heavy long timber. Almost never that much *area* in one job; nobody can afford it. I bet Denmark, Canada, and Russia also have experienced big-timber framers, and know where the big trees are. Job like this will need extra workers; I'm sure France can find labor. Language is a problem, but timber framing work is a small vocabulary.

DaveP said:

I hope that this latest catastrophe will have the effect of bringing the country back together again as the rebuilding gets going.

DaveP

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Hey Dave
you better be phlegmatic than this kind of optimistic  ;D

joke aside we have this tonight at ARTE (bi-national german/french  TV)
https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/057383-000-A/dans-le-ventre-de-l-orgue-de-notre-dame/

amazing stuff all around, but especially starting just before 30min for "technical" view of the inside of the organ...
but for those who have the time it really deserve a full play of the video (52mn)

the lower C tube (16Hz?) is(was?) huge but that's nothing compared to the whole instrument
(spanish and brit sub available)

According to later statement, the organ is more or less safe, at least it don't burn (maybe some water...)

Best
Zam

France may not have trees that big.

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I think it does, the UK has only 5% forested area left, whereas France has 25%.

I don't think they will try to recreate that roof, I think it will be a steel structure internally but look identical externally.

DaveP

Hi, Dave you are right it'll not be rebuilt using identical technic: more probably steel frame structure.
This is what happened in all  others Cathedral which was ruined in France. Sometimes using 'strange' technical answers ( looking back with knowledge we have now): i can't remember which one -but it may be at Le Havre- but one of the roof structure is from concrete!

About people unity in France well... You are very very optimistic Dave. This won't happen. This is the result from years and years of a methodical plan in my view.

We have an expression " diviser pour mieux reigner" ( divide to reign/manipulate).  "Liberte, egalite, fraternite" such a joke.  :-X
Last time it was true may have been in the 70's.

About people unity in France well... You are very very optimistic Dave. This won't happen. This is the result from years and years of a methodical plan in my view.

We have an expression " diviser pour mieux reigner" ( divide to reign/manipulate).  "Liberte, egalite, fraternite" such a joke.  :-X
Last time it was true may have been in the 70's.

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  Having lived in France for 5 years now, I can see some things that have caused the problems you speak about.  To make comparisons with the English where unemployment is only 3.9% as against 10% in France, there are uncomfortable reasons for this.  The French have a much greater resistance to change than the English.  The French "manifestations" are always more violent, this kind of behaviour is not tolerated in England.  The wonderful French language is controlled by a commitee instead of the people, so it cannot change with the times.  Your banks charge people to use a carte bleu, so people still use cheques!!  Your factures have extracts of the laws printed on them, what for?  In the UK you have just one customer number for a bill, we don't need all the other numbers you put on your bills to identify us.

The use of the internet is 10 years behind that of the UK, the search facility for example Leroy Merlin, never works because no-one has bothered to put in sufficient search links.  It's like the internet is thought of as an infernal anglo saxon invention!  I have realised that the French are very conservative and they cling to the old ways and bureaucracy,  you have far too many fonctionaires for your economy, around 20% of the working population, whereas in the UK they are only 1%.  These are a few of the reasons why France is not doing so well, it is your system that is at fault, it stifles effort and change.  Your language is isolating you from the rest of the world,  I only know of 4 people who can speak English well (Excluding You and Abbey!) out here, whereas in Holland, practically everyone speaks English.  Macron is actually completely right in his assessment of France, but the people hate him for it, which is sad.

Having said all that, I love the place!  But it's maybe a bit too much of a time warp for its own good.

Cordialement
DaveP

KrIVIUM2323 said:

Hi, Dave you are right it'll not be rebuilt using identical technic: more probably steel frame structure.

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I'm not sure the firemen would approve. Steel frames are more impredictible than wood in case of fire. When reaching temperature, steel becomes soft all of a sudden and then it's a chain reaction, the whole structure collapses in seconds. They prefer wood that that a long time to actually burn and lose strength. They particularly like "lamellé-collé" ("glulam").

Sometimes using 'strange' technical answers ( looking back with knowledge we have now): i can't remember which one -but it may be at Le Havre- but one of the roof structure is from concrete!

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Makes sense; pre-stressed concrete is a very elegant solution.

Someone mentioned Titanium sheets for the roof, but unfortunately Titanium burns in air even though it is an extremely strong and corrosion resistant metal.  It burns to titanium dioxide the white pigment used in white paint.

DaveP

Dave, well i must agree about your description of some aspect of our country ( and i include you as a part of this country as you live here ). This is a pity for some aspects, others are not in my view.

We are violent yes. This is historical.
We say something, 'nos ancetres les Gaulois' ( our Gallic ancestors) and they were seen as barbarians, the French revolution wasn't the most peaceful one you could find ( there was a bad habits to put heads on a fork)... in fact most social progress was gained through violent confrontation. Even chat can be violent between us ( without inducing that we hate our opponents, this is just something related to the form). This can be a brutal schock for foreigners!

About the fonctionnaire well... yes there is a lot and yes they are not always productive enough but this is something which i think is not a bad thing. This came from post WW2 and the kind of society model which was choosen at that time ( my grand parent's generation).
There is a nice tv serie about that which is named 'Un village francais'. If you want to have an idea of how and why our model is like that it'll give you a lot of keys to understand social security, fonctionnaire, some of the reasons of fight we have now... and why we are ( seems) conservative. If you can follow it ( it is in french...) watch it this is enlightning ( it was supervised by historians and despite being a fiction many things presented are credible).
We are not good with foreign language... mainly because everything appearing on screens ( cinema or tv) is translated in french! First time i gone to netherlands with my girlfriend( which doesn't speak english very well) and we watched tv it was a revelation! No subtitles: if you don't understand english, you don't understand at all! And dutch isn't easy to learn ( at least for me!).

About Macron, well yes maybe his analysis of our society is 'true' seen from the outside and foreigners but from the inside this is another question.
The gilets jaune first recriminations were in my view justified (as 80% of french people thoughts too), what it became since is much more discutable in my view ( populism at its worst).
And he was elected to represent people, not a very small percentage of the population which are the 'elite' (or what they consider to be the 'trend of the world'). Most of our presidents have forgotten this since... a long time! I hope to be wrong but it'll be a bad ending i fear ( remember the forks?... except that this time it may be political and bankers heads rather than the nobility's one). Time will tell.

There is one things that disturbed me about Macron's speech when Notre Dame burnt: i felt their was a kind of jubilation in his eyes, different from the usual arrogance.
And the comment of John  about the 5 years to rebuild the Cathedral just popped up in my head: this is what he was waiting for to be a 'grand batisseur'!
We have a legacy of president seing themselve as 'great builders' since Mitterand: the pyramide au Louvres, the bibliotheque F. Mitterand, the museum of primitive art,... 
Such an excuse to follow the legacy and let his own fingerprint in the history! Like the other big boys. And you may not know but there is a fight starting here as he decided to be the 'chef architect' for the rebuilt ( it may be something totally different from the initial build).
One thing is sure the guy is smart and inteligent ( or opportunist?).


Abbey, yes steel was a poor choice of words ( should have used metal) but you get the idea ( despite Dave embarassing comment i'm not so good in english as i would like to be). Something not in plain wood!

Lamglu, yes. Impressive what can be achieved using this technic. The first time i visited the Beaubourg Museum in Metz i was as impressed by the building structure using lamglu as i was by exposition ( which i've forgotten who it was).

https://www.google.com/search?q=image+de+la+structure+lamelle+colle+du+musee+beaubourg+de+metz&oq=image+de+la+structure+lamelle+colle+du+musee+beaubourg+de+metz&aqs=chrome..69i57.27305j0j4&client=tablet-android-orange-fr&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=TRXqQ8Ckr87JPM:

DaveP said:

  Having lived in France for 5 years now, I can see some things that have caused the problems you speak about.  To make comparisons with the English where unemployment is only 3.9% as against 10% in France, there are uncomfortable reasons for this.  The French have a much greater resistance to change than the English.

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Isn't it strange for a country that "invented" revolution vs. one that still has a ruling monarch?

  The French "manifestations" are always more violent, this kind of behaviour is not tolerated in England.

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Is that right? It is true that in recent times, blackblocks have hijacked many demonstrations, which may give a very different slant to how they appear to the outside. OTOH demonstrations in UK and Ireland when Maggie T. reigned were quite violent.

  The wonderful French language is controlled by a commitee instead of the people, so it cannot change with the times. 

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I agree 100%; fortunately our Canadian cousins are attentive at protecting French from the Academy  .

Your banks charge people to use a carte bleu,

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Do you mean UK banks don't?

so people still use cheques!!

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I'm not sure one is the direct consequence of the other. Many people are reluctant because it's "computer-based"; they don't understand a thing about them and are consequently reluctant.

Your factures have extracts of the laws printed on them, what for? 

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I would think it's a EU directive. I receive invoices from Germany with the same typical blurb.

In the UK you have just one customer number for a bill, we don't need all the other numbers you put on your bills to identify us.

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  I must admit Brits have a much more effective way of dealing with practicality, s.ame with income tax (it's coming in France, not without hiccups and fears).

the search facility for example Leroy Merlin, never works because no-one has bothered to put in sufficient search links.

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You've chosen one of the worst examples; it is not the norm.

It's like the internet is thought of as an infernal anglo saxon invention!

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That's not what I see as a generality.

I have realised that the French are very conservative

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Not in every respect. France would not be the 5th global economy it it were true.

and they cling to the old ways and bureaucracy,  you have far too many fonctionaires for your economy, around 20% of the working population, whereas in the UK they are only 1%.  These are a few of the reasons why France is not doing so well, it is your system that is at fault, it stifles effort and change.

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Not all bureaucracy is bad. Too many fonctionnaires? Teachers, nurses, public transportation... UK has managed to privatize them, not necessarily with good results.
Indeed I agree that some fonctionnaires are a liability to the country. And that the generous unemployment protection system has created serious anomalies.

Your language is isolating you from the rest of the world,

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Sorry for being "foreigners". Coluche (great late humorist) used to say: "Foreigners are stupid, they don't even speak the same language".

I only know of 4 people who can speak English well (Excluding You and Abbey!) out here,

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I only know of two English(wo)men that speak French.

whereas in Holland, practically everyone speaks English.

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This normal for a  language that is spoken by only 28 million people in very few territories.

Having said all that, I love the place!  But it's maybe a bit too much of a time warp for its own good

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You can't separate France from its own history. WW2 was such a traumatism that a strong reconciliation system was needed. The fault is in not having considered adaptability of said system.

Tubetec said:

It does seem like Macron is trying to  seize the oppertunity to build a little civic pride , what big news is being slipped through the back door meanwhile though?

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Exactly. I always think that when stories come out - what are they sneaking in the back door? Usually it's manufactured fake or hyped news that is meaningless; this however of course is the real deal...

Abbey, +1.
If i could express myself as you do in english! Always frustrating for me.  :

> Something not in plain wood!

Little wrist-size wood burns right up.

Big chest-wide wood is VERY fire-resistant.

If there is another fuel source (there usually is), steel softens and then suddenly crumples. Big wood chars on the outside which protects the wood inside.

Yes, the wood must be over-size for normal load to stand after 10% of it chars. But wood is always designed generously, because any stick of wood can have a hidden defect. And because wood is generally cheap (compared to other materials). Wood structures are almost universally designed so the failure of any single stick is no big problem. (I think I have a failed joist in my floor, but with 17 joists I am not worried.)

Rolled steel has no hidden defects. It is much more expensive, but also much stronger. It can be cheaper than wood when it is carefully designed for minimum material. This has led to bridges which fall down if a single beam fails (from neglect of rust, or truck/ship collision).

Steel is normally "fire-proofed" by a concrete jacket. This raises cost, hinders rust inspection, and isn't actually long-term fire-proof, usually only enough for evacuation.

The choice of big wood or steel is not an easy decision. (And complicated by many rules and codes.)

Glu-Lam is often a good option. You can order it as big as you want. It is made from small boards so the cost for size is low. There is no hidden large knot or fracture; big defects are cut-out and small defects shuffled-in.

There is one things that disturbed me about Macron's speech when Notre Dame burnt: i felt their was a kind of jubilation in his eyes, different from the usual arrogance.

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It's funny how we all see things diferently, I saw him as a man in a very shocked and emotional state, struggling to maintain  a sense of calm leadership.

DaveP

Our newish airport terminal got Glulam for the roof , huge big curved beams maybe 100 foot long ,screwed together with gigantic coach bolts and mounted on steel pillars .