80's consoles and the 21th century - mixing desk DAW mods!?

[nrgrecording]

Hi there!

I would like to start thinking about modifications on my old soundcraft 2400 desk from the 80's. The problem is... its not made for any DigitalAudioWorkstation... :roll:

What about this idea: (patching the DAW into the inserts)
The input 1-24 of the ADC(analog-digital converter) is connected to the "INSERT SEND" of the desk.
The output 1-24 of the DAC(digital-analog converter) is connected to the "INSERT RETURN" of the desk.

There is a "monitor" button which switches the input to the output in most of the sequencer programs. The Insert send signal is now back in the console and before the channel fader and PAN control.

This way the input signal with digital plugins is now at the channelfader and a monitor-headphone-mix can be made with the analog desk. "Solo" and "mute" is still working.

In mixdown mode the signal comes from the insert returns. (eqs are pre insert send) so thats maybe a problem. You can't use the eq now. Maybe its good because when the audio signal was recorded its better to use digital eq/dynamics because of the sequencer's total recall function.
(if the eq would be post insert when the sequencer is in playback mode the eq would be "in"... and has to be bypassed in play mode)

If the channel faders would be replaced with a vca automation and motorfaders I could get in trouble because the volume is controlled in the sequencer program (volume at the da-converter output) and at the channel volume fader. Replacing the channel faders with fixed 10K resistors may help so the motorfaders only controls the sequencer volume... the input level of the ad-converter has to be set with the mic-input and line-input pot)

I don't need the 24 monitor/group channels of the split channel so they could be replaced with additional input channels. I have to use the 24 BUS channels then... so that it is possible to route the input channels to the 24 channels of the ad-converter. (but I have to send the signal from the da-conveter to the line input then... this way I can use the eq if i want to.)

example:
I could patch a mic to channel 28 for example, press the routing button "1" and the signal is routed to channel 1 of the sequencer. So I can record on channel 28 with eq and still usable analog inserts, i can use the digital fx in the sequencer. The signal which is being recorded can be send to the headphone mix and the recorded signal can be sent to the headphone mix on channel 1 with the aux send pots to the headphone mix... for overdubs)

Iam also thinking about using the old vca automation and motorfaders.
Maybe a rotary encoder with 'PGA2311' attenuator IC which replaces the analog pan pot? (lots of work of course... probably too much!?)
Then the pan and volume settings can be saved in the sequencer program.

Without the 24 group channels of the split console there is much space to add a small tft for an analyzer, daw control buttons... something for the computer keyboard, mouse...

Another idea is to make one "digital channelstrip"... just some rotary encoder, switches, channel fader and a button to select the channel in the sequencer program. Then its easier to set all of the 24 channels to record mode... by pressing REC, then "next channel"... REC, "next chanel"...

What do you think? The "building a 400m² studio diy" project is finished soon.. so I need another challenge! :sad:

Thanks,
Frank.

 

[sonicmook56]

What data standard are you going to use to connect the console to your sequencer?

What software sequencer are you using?

I don't quite understand why you want your "multitrack" on the insert send/return.

 

[toffifee]

[quote author="nrgrecording"]
There is a "monitor" button which switches the input to the output in most of the sequencer programs. The Insert send signal is now back in the console and before the channel fader and PAN control.

This way the input signal with digital plugins is now at the channelfader and a monitor-headphone-mix can be made with the analog desk. "Solo" and "mute" is still working.
[/quote]

I wouldn´t want to do the monitor mixes WITH latency... and I know a lot of musicians who hate to record with latency.
No matter how short the latency is, they KNOW it is there, and will not like it...
Why not just grab the signal for the ADs at the insert send (passive y-split), so you can get your signal for your converters without EQ, but can do monitor-mixes analog and with EQ?

[quote author="nrgrecording"]In mixdown mode the signal comes from the insert returns. (eqs are pre insert send) so thats maybe a problem. You can't use the eq now. Maybe its good because when the audio signal was recorded its better to use digital eq/dynamics because of the sequencer's total recall function.
(if the eq would be post insert when the sequencer is in playback mode the eq would be "in"... and has to be bypassed in play mode)
[/quote]
Is it too much work to press some "bypass" buttons? I would like to have the possibility to use the desk EQs (and didn`t you say you like the SC EQs alot)? So it would be wise to make them switchable pre/post insert?

meint der Toff :grin:

 

[nrgrecording]

sonicmook56:What data standard are you going to use to connect the console to your sequencer?
Data standard? What do you mean exactly? Its just a standard adda converter... just like a fostex D2424LV, RME ADI-8, behringer ADA8000... whatever.

sonicmook56:What software sequencer are you using?
The console will be used by different people. Most of them are using steinberg cubase sx.

sonicmook56:I don't quite understand why you want your "multitrack" on the insert send/return.
I could hear the digital plugins in the headphone mix and after the channel fader. I want to sum the mix completely analog through the desk not in the computer.


@toff:
That makes sense if latency is a problem. Probably it is.
What about the guys who're using daw's only? Do they have a problem with that?



toffifee: Is it too much work to press some "bypass" buttons?
When recording drums on say 10 channels it could and replaying the signals once again to the eqs with the same eq settings it will sound strange doesn't it? Drums need massive eq'ing sometimes. I can't press all 10 EQ bypass buttons at the moment where the overdub begins. Do you? :grin:


Hmm... I could rout the 10 drum tracks to a stereo sum out of the computer to the desk. Then I can adjust the volume for the headphone mix for the drummer. I would be cool if this is more easier to handle.

 

[toffifee]

[quote author="nrgrecording"]

When recording drums on say 10 channels it could and replaying the signals once again to the eqs with the same eq settings it will sound strange doesn't it? Drums need massive eq'ing sometimes. I can't press all 10 EQ bypass buttons at the moment where the overdub begins. Do you? :grin:[/quote]

You are right. Well, you said "Mixdown Mode", and I thought of the part of the production where tracking is done, when you don´t have to do monitormixes any more...

So when talking about tracking, and overdub, you could route the drums tracks from your DAW to another 10 desk channels (classic split setup), where you could duplicate the EQing.
Or you could route the drum tracks to a stereo bus, and that to the drummers headphones (as you write yourself). If you did heavy EQing for the monitor mix, you could duplicate this inside the DAW, so the two track monitor mix sounds similar to what the drummer is hearing when playing.

But let´s see if it would be possible to route all the drum channels back separately to the same channels which are used for tracking ("inline" setup without "inline" desk :grin. What if you would have the outputs of the converters connected to the insert returns (passively merged with the "normal" signal), and your EQ is switchable pre or post insert.

Situation 1: Let´s say you track your signal with EQ post insert, then the signal reaches your harddisc unEQed. The DAW (because it´s in tracking modus) does not output the signal to the DA, so it does not get back to the desk, and so your drummer only hears the direct, analog signal without latency. You use the desk EQs only for monitor purposes. When you replay the drums (eg. overdub), the drummer has the same sound on his phones as when playing.

Situation 2: Let´s say you track your signal with EQ pre insert (because you know exactly how the EQing has to be, and you want the EQing to be recorded), then the signal reaches your harddisc EQed. As in Situation 1, the DAW (because it´s in tracking modus) does not output the signal to the DA, so your drummer only hears the direct, analog signal without latency. When you replay the drums (overdub), the drummer has the same sound on his phones as when playing - because the signal is inserted post EQ, an thus is not EQed twice.

Only thinking out loud, never seen something like this...
:sam:

This [quote author="nrgrecording"]example:
I could patch a mic to channel 28 for example, press the routing button "1" and the signal is routed to channel 1 of the sequencer. So I can record on channel 28 with eq and still usable analog inserts, i can use the digital fx in the sequencer. The signal which is being recorded can be send to the headphone mix and the recorded signal can be sent to the headphone mix on channel 1 with the aux send pots to the headphone mix... for overdubs)[/quote] seems to be the better solution... because you have usable inserts for dynamics etc. You have to use your ten racks outboard, don´t you? :wink:

 

[nrgrecording]

Okay... good ideas!


What about this:
Wiring the Group Busses directly to the DAW input seems to be good. Its possible to route from any channel to one of the 24 input channels of the ADC. Thats important if you want to use more then 24 input channels.

In Cubase I could send everything out on two channels back to the console. This way I can hear everything (inclusive the latency) :thumb: and with all digital plugins and analog inserts. At the two "playback" channel I can send the recorded tracks to the aux (headphonemix).

When doing the mixdown I could use the line input of the channel. Then I can use the eq, aux and analog inserts again. The 24 channels can be 1:1 routed to the desk now.

I only have to rewire the vu meters... because they're fed by the group/monitor module. Thats an easy one.

In mixdown mode I can record the midi data from the vca automation in cubase then.

Only thinking out loud, never seen something like this...

Me neither! I think somone should check it out and see that it sucks. :green:
We'll see.

 

[Martin B. Kantola]

[quote author="nrgrecording"]When doing the mixdown I could use the line input of the channel. Then I can use the eq, aux and analog inserts again.[/quote]

Might not follow you, but are you saying the ADC's are getting their signal from insert send or group busses?

If you go with the insert idea, the feed from the DAC needs to be split to both insert return and line in (double loading), also causing a potential electric feedback problem (if your console is in line input mode when recording. Or...?

Good thread, like it when someone looks for a better solution...

Martin

 

[nrgrecording]

Hi Martin.

You're right. But at the moment I want to get the signal for the ADC's from the group busses.

When removing the group/monitor modules there is no input/buffer opamp anymore. But the ADC's input circuit should have one I think.

Frank.

 

[justanalogue]

In mixdown mode the signal comes from the insert returns. (eqs are pre insert send) so thats maybe a problem. You can't use the eq now. Maybe its good because when the audio signal was recorded its better to use digital eq/dynamics because of the sequencer's total recall function.
(if the eq would be post insert when the sequencer is in playback mode the eq would be "in"... and has to be bypassed in play mode)

Most likely there should be a switch on each channel strip to set the EQ pre or post insert, you could replace this with a relay to suit your needs.

Willem

 

[nrgrecording]

Unfortunately there is no eq pre or post switch. But I think I will use the GroupOutputs for the daw inputs. I can send the recorded tracks to a stereo channel on the desk and use the aux sends then for the headphonemix (playback for overdubbing). Then I can use the EQ in the mixdown mode and the signal from the daw to the stereo channel is without any eq... So it should work fine... We'll see.

Thanks,
Frank.