All OpAmp mic design (no FET at first stage)

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I have an Alice OPA. But I'm not very satisfied with S/N. There is always a slight background noise. Even if I adjust the capusle voltage to 80v. I had been expecting a very quiet pre, but I was a bit disappointed.
 
The transistor count in OP amps is high. The opportunity for IM rises with more active devices.
The OP amp gain is high, but how much is needed? A lot of negative feedback results in a less desirable harmonic structure.

Is this true? What is a "desirable harmonic structure"? Are you talking about introducing good harmonic distortion without introducing bad intermodulation distortion, or what?

I would naively think that a properly designed circuit with a proper level of feedback and filtering---so that the output waveform is very, VERY close to a scaled-up version of the input waveform---would exhibit not just nearly zero THD but also nearly zero IMD, because there's just not much error of any audible sort there.

Is that wrong?

Does the internal complexity of op amps actually introduce more IM due to more active devices?

Are there any good shootouts of good opamp-based circuits vs. good discrete component circuits, to empirically determine what's actually audible?
 
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Is this true? What is a "desirable harmonic structure"? Are you talking about introducing good harmonic distortion without introducing bad intermodulation distortion, or what?

I would naively think that a properly designed circuit with a proper level of feedback and filtering---so that the output waveform is very, VERY close to a scaled-up version of the input waveform---would exhibit not just nearly zero THD but also nearly zero IMD, because there's just not much error of any audible sort there.

Is that wrong?

Does the internal complexity of op amps actually introduce more IM due to more active devices?

Are there any good shootouts of good opamp-based circuits vs. good discrete component circuits, to empirically determine what's actually audible?
he's talking about the fact that distortion goes up when output volume goes down in these kinds of amps and they thus tend towards higher order distortion. he would be right if this was the early 2000s, but these amps have made massive strides since then. one of the design features of the 1642 is specifically low IMD in this circumstance. This opamp, unlike many other opamps, is designed specifically for operating at near unity gain and specifically for transimpedance from an electret or condenser capsule (in car infotainment systems, but i digress). this is a purpose-built opamp for microphone circuits and takes steps to avoid this problem.
 
Is this true? What is a "desirable harmonic structure"? Are you talking about introducing good harmonic distortion without introducing bad intermodulation distortion, or what?

I would naively think that a properly designed circuit with a proper level of feedback and filtering---so that the output waveform is very, VERY close to a scaled-up version of the input waveform---would exhibit not just nearly zero THD but also nearly zero IMD, because there's just not much error of any audible sort there.

Is that wrong?

Does the internal complexity of op amps actually introduce more IM due to more active devices?

Are there any good shootouts of good opamp-based circuits vs. good discrete component circuits, to empirically determine what's actually audible?

Add to the above that as you add more NFB to a circuit, the ratio of higher order to lower order harmonics increases. So at 40 db NFB, you might get more 5th and 7th harmonic distortion relative to 2nd harmonic distortion, though total THD will decrease. Higher harmonics are generally considered less desirable because they have a less musical relationship to the input signal.

This article by Nelson Pass may be of interest: https://www.passdiy.com/pdf/distortion_feedback.pdf
 
Pls note the following noise diagram: JFET 2SK208 (= 2SK118 = 2SK30) as worst in class JFET, NSVJ3910 as best in class JFET, both JFETs with 1mA drain current
and OPA1641 as voltage buffer. The diagram shows the equivalent input noise at 50pF source capacitance, legend shows 1/3 RTA levels @ 20kHz. The A-weighted equivalent input noise level is -125,5dBV for 2SK208, 129,0dBV for NSVJ3910 and -122,0dBV for OPA1641.
The worst JFET is 3,5dB better than the OpAmp, the best JFET is 7,0dB better!
BR MicUlli
 

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Add to the above that as you add more NFB to a circuit, the ratio of higher order to lower order harmonics increases. So at 40 db NFB, you might get more 5th and 7th harmonic distortion relative to 2nd harmonic distortion, though total THD will decrease. Higher harmonics are generally considered less desirable because they have a less musical relationship to the input signal.

This article by Nelson Pass may be of interest: https://www.passdiy.com/pdf/distortion_feedback.pdf

If I'm reading that paper right, Figure 10 seems to say that going from 0 to 15 dB feedback to gives you a higher proportion of higher harmonics, but going from there to 40 db makes all of them VASTLY lower and presumably entirely masked by the overwhelmingly clean signal (except possibly for the 2nd harmonic, which is comparatively benign).

Most of the curves are nonmonotonic, all but the 2nd harmonic rising between 0 dB feedback and 7 to 15 dB feedback, depending on the harmonic number, then all decline monotonically.

Figure 11 emphasizes that weirdness before the monotonic decline, giving distortion curves for 3 to 15 dB feedback, i.e., corresponding to the problematic region of Figure 10, where harmonics are rising because you're just not using enough feedback.

As he says in the text Figure 11 "clearly shows the increase in higher order harmonics with the application of negative feedback," but he doesn't address what he just said with regard to the nonmonotonicity in Figure 10, that "Negative loop feedback creates higher order distortion harmonics, and there seems to be an implication that you might want to use lots of feedback if you plan on using any at all."

Well, YEAH. It sure does seem from Figure 10 that if you're going to use feedback, you want to do it right and use enough feedback to get distortion really low. After noting the obvious implication that you should use enough feedback to do the job, he says "Some designers look at it this way, others use feedback sparingly, and some refuse to use it at all."

Whut? He doesn't explain why the designers who "look at it this way" aren't simply right, and the designers who use feedback more sparingly aren't simply missing the boat.

It seems to me that the main lesson of that paper should be that you shouldn't cascade multiple stages that generate significant distortion, because that increases the ugly higher-order harmonics and IM distortion, so you should NOT use a tube mic AND a tube preamp AND a tube compressor, and with transformers all over the place. You should generate the distortion you want in ONE stage (if desired), probably applied to individual instruments rather than more complex signals, and everything past that should be clean.
 
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I have an Alice OPA. But I'm not very satisfied with S/N. There is always a slight background noise. Even if I adjust the capusle voltage to 80v. I had been expecting a very quiet pre, but I was a bit disappointed.
I've compared the noise figure obtained from my single op-amp OPIC circuit to my Rode NT1 mic, which has a published noise figure of 4.5dB(A).
The OPIC circuit noise is about 3dB higher than that.
The Alice OPA circuit adds a second op-amp, to produce a differential audio output. That additional op-amp and its associated resistors will add aproximately a further 3dB to the noise figure.
So you might expect a self noise figure of around 10dB(A) from your Alice OPA device..... Still regarded as 'extremely low', according to Neumann's notes on the subject: https://www.neumann.com/en-gb/homestudio-academy/what-is-self-noise-or-equivalent-noise-level .
In all those examples, I suspect any generated noise will be swamped by ambient noise, in most 'real world' recording situations...
 
I've compared the noise figure obtained from my single op-amp OPIC circuit to my Rode NT1 mic, which has a published noise figure of 4.5dB(A).
The OPIC circuit noise is about 3dB higher than that.
The Alice OPA circuit adds a second op-amp, to produce a differential audio output. That additional op-amp and its associated resistors will add aproximately a further 3dB to the noise figure.
So you might expect a self noise figure of around 10dB(A) from your Alice OPA device..... Still regarded as 'extremely low', according to Neumann's notes on the subject: https://www.neumann.com/en-gb/homestudio-academy/what-is-self-noise-or-equivalent-noise-level .
In all those examples, I suspect any generated noise will be swamped by ambient noise, in most 'real world' recording situations...
That’s why I bought this circuit. I wanna a super clean and low self noise pre for mic. By theoretical that should be an ultra quiet pre. But the reality is Alice opa has more self noise than any mic I made. I’m so confused. If my Alice opa has some problems? I bought it from his website.

Best
 
That’s why I bought this circuit. I wanna a super clean and low self noise pre for mic. By theoretical that should be an ultra quiet pre. But the reality is Alice opa has more self noise than any mic I made. I’m so confused. If my Alice opa has some problems? I bought it from his website.

Best
Here's a quick sample speech recording using an OPIC preamp: https://tinyurl.com/OPIC-sample

No processing or filtering (not A weighted). Just a 40Hz HPF to get rid of the 'room rumble'.
It shows the noise floor you might expect from a single OPA164* op-amp preamp.
When you say 'I bought it from his website' - I'm guessing you mean Jules Ryckebusch's project in collaboration with JLI ? .....
If so, you might expect a noise floor some 3dB worse from that circuit ... but not more than that.
 
FWIW with about 3V injected into my OPIC i get about 0.009THD, so in my opinion discussing THD at any reasonable level with this mic is over complicating things for no apparent reason. Just stay away from clipping the opamps.
Just audible for me is somewhere around 0.03% (and I am sensitive to distortion) and the 1642 is still laughably lower than even that. You are not gonna hear distortion on the 1642 basically ever
 
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I think that the very top end designs may still prefer to use discrete FETs rather than op- amps. Especially where specific non linearites are deliberately introduced into a design.....

The OPA164* series of op-amps do have extraordinarily low distortion figures, and pretty low noise levels.
I use them as unity gain buffers with no gain applied.
I've found using them very effective, as a simple good quality alternative to discrete component impedance converters .....
A unity gain OP applies maximum feedback, many OP amps can't handle that.
Try it open loop, like the tube config.
I'd be curios how an active loaded 6DJ8 would work out. Up to 60dB gain without feedback possible.
Of course an OP can work, and they are getting well past the 741 stage, but any better?
 
A unity gain OP applies maximum feedback, many OP amps can't handle that.
Try it open loop, like the tube config.
I'd be curios how an active loaded 6DJ8 would work out. Up to 60dB gain without feedback possible.
Of course an OP can work, and they are getting well past the 741 stage, but any better?
The 1642 is designed specifically for this exact application. the 1642 is designed to do one thing: buffer a high impedance source to line level with optional gain. it is not an off-label or adapted use like 99% of other OPAs used in microphone circuits. it is explicitly designed not to suffer from serious drawbacks at unity gain with a high source impedance.
 
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If I'm reading that paper right, Figure 10 seems to say that going from 0 to 15 dB feedback to gives you a higher proportion of higher harmonics, but going from there to 40 db makes all of them VASTLY lower and presumably entirely masked by the overwhelmingly clean signal (except possibly for the 2nd harmonic, which is comparatively benign).

Most of the curves are nonmonotonic, all but the 2nd harmonic rising between 0 dB feedback and 7 to 15 dB feedback, depending on the harmonic number, then all decline monotonically.

Figure 11 emphasizes that weirdness before the monotonic decline, giving distortion curves for 3 to 15 dB feedback, i.e., corresponding to the problematic region of Figure 10, where harmonics are rising because you're just not using enough feedback.

As he says in the text Figure 11 "clearly shows the increase in higher order harmonics with the application of negative feedback," but he doesn't address what he just said with regard to the nonmonotonicity in Figure 10, that "Negative loop feedback creates higher order distortion harmonics, and there seems to be an implication that you might want to use lots of feedback if you plan on using any at all."

Well, YEAH. It sure does seem from Figure 10 that if you're going to use feedback, you want to do it right and use enough feedback to get distortion really low. After noting the obvious implication that you should use enough feedback to do the job, he says "Some designers look at it this way, others use feedback sparingly, and some refuse to use it at all."

Whut? He doesn't explain why the designers who "look at it this way" aren't simply right, and the designers who use feedback more sparingly aren't simply missing the boat.

It seems to me that the main lesson of that paper should be that you shouldn't cascade multiple stages that generate significant distortion, because that increases the ugly higher-order harmonics and IM distortion, so you should NOT use a tube mic AND a tube preamp AND a tube compressor, and with transformers all over the place. You should generate the distortion you want in ONE stage (if desired), probably applied to individual instruments rather than more complex signals, and everything past that should be clean.
It is worth noting that Nelson Pass is discussing sound _reproduction_.
As microphones are at the Production end of the process, you can't capture or qualify the signal without a transducer, so the product development process becomes empirical.
The ear adds it own even order harmonics, and "mask" them, it is the odd order stuff that would be a focus of interest.
If one mike sounds better than another, applying measurement tools may reveal something, but not may not be sufficient to find the source of "goodness". The instrumentation will find something "wrong" to a degree, and its reciprocal value is not necessarily a more desirable result.
Objective results may fall short of expectations.
It is hard to argue against your own experience, others... oh well :)
 
It is worth noting that Nelson Pass is discussing sound _reproduction_.
As microphones are at the Production end of the process, you can't capture or qualify the signal without a transducer, so the product development process becomes empirical.
The ear adds it own even order harmonics, and "mask" them, it is the odd order stuff that would be a focus of interest.
If one mike sounds better than another, applying measurement tools may reveal something, but not may not be sufficient to find the source of "goodness". The instrumentation will find something "wrong" to a degree, and its reciprocal value is not necessarily a more desirable result.
Objective results may fall short of expectations.
It is hard to argue against your own experience, others... oh well :)
Which is why interpreting measurement results is probably even more important than the measurement alone. Caveat of what you are describing is the fact these effects most of the time get abused by marketing, claiming there's something more to the sound than the measurements can show. And don't get me wrong, there are many things measurements can't show, but i rarely see them discussed anywhere.

If you go this far, you have to take into the account all the non linearities, artefacts caused by the music instruments, and every component starting from diaphragm sputtering thickness to the dust on your speaker and air humidity and elevation. This inevitably leads to audio foolery and doesn't leave much room for creative process. Somehow almost as a rule this leads to seeking exotic, unobtainable, extremely expensive parts, instruments, wires, bla, bla, bla...

I can make a mic, measure it, publish all relevant data, but once you put it in your environment and start using it, it will perform, measure and most importantly sound different because all the variables involved. However these variables are beyond anyones control. They are also way above percentages expressed in zero point whatever.
 
Also, different microphones and instruments CAN (not necessarily will) sound and measure different in different countries! Obviously not for political reasons, but because laws of physics.
 
The psycho-acoustic research has some way to go, and likely it would contain confounding and conflicting results.
There is as much art as science in equipment, and behind the mike it is all art.
Fun, fun, fun.
 

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