Attitudes… good or bad?

[johnheath]

Hi all…

I am writing this because of some posts I have read on this forum. I do not know if I am alone with my opinion or not but I think it is worth mention.

My guess is that everybody writing on this forum has at least one thing in common… we are all building or are interested in building audio stuff of varying degree of difficulty and interest.

Some of us are musicians, some audio technicians and some engineers… some of all these are experts and some are just not.

All in all there seems to be a pattern in that most people are asking questions and some are answering these questions. Some are also experts in the chosen language and some are facing trouble writing in english.

But my observation is that sometimes people are being treated as if they are complete nut cases and it is not always because they are but simply because of facts mentioned above.

To give another perspective on this I might say that I have been practicing Judo all my life and I am considered to be an expert in Judo practice but also in Judo theory. I have constantly been asked questions on Judo for the last 20 years or so… from beginners to "semi-experts" mixed with a lot of opinions on why, when and what not.

I always try to answer so that the asking person really understand what I am saying… I see it as my way of returning my knowledge to the people that will take my place when I am gone… circle of life perhaps?

I  say this because it is rarely the case that asked questions are asked to be rude in any way … they are asked because somebody would like to know more about something and mostly that is the case here on this fantastic forum with all the expertise and knowledge people and members possess… but not always unfortunately.

I might be "hanged" for this but hey… all the judo training has given me a strong neck

Best regards from me

/John

 

[gyraf]

I've detected some of this lately and worried about it, because it's so much what we do not want to be here at GroupDIY.

And traditionally we were good at it.

Trying to see it from a zoomed-out perspective, I think I have detected a pattern of the harsh discussion tone most often appearing in threads where one or more participant has economic (or economic-by-proxy) interests in defending a particular worldview. This seems to trigger all the worst (best?) in the common, educated user here - probably because the original scope of this forum had to do with cutting through commercial smokescreen.

And when defending the undefendable, criticizing language skills is the easiest way to deal a blow to your adversary.

Regrettably, I can't see any real solution - we can't forbid anyone discussing stuff that they have monetary interest in.

What we do is try to be very strict implementing our almost-only forum rule: No Personal Attacks!  For resolving most types of verbal fights this works well.

(as you can probably see, my primary language is also not English)

Jakob E.

 

[DerEber]

Better not worry too much about it.
Otherwise the haters will spoil up our good vibe.
;D
Just keep on beeing nicer than everyone else can imagine.

 

[Gustav]

But my observation is that sometimes people are being treated as if they are complete nut cases and it is not always because they are but simply because of facts mentioned above.

I always try to reflect on my own communication. I try my hardest to make corrections and mental notes to make sure everything flows, but I do fail, and there are no set answers.

As an example, I have both managed to upset people by asking them basic questions to make sure basics are in order (It can make people feel like they are being talked down to, while the intention is simply to establish the base point to avoid making assumptions that can lead to overlooking possible issues), as well as upsetting people by failing to make sure those basics are in order.

I recently had an experience, trying to help someone,and  being fully prepared to make errata for a project.

The builder did not have the skills to do a meaningful measurement, but insisted on a design error based on somewhat idiosyncratic testing methods.  In my own investigation, I was not able to replicate his problems. In a case like that, its really frustrating to "live-and-let-live", because the conclusion (make the errata or not) sort of hangs in the air, unresolved. This goes to the heart of what Jakob mentioned, since I am an example of someone who has commercial interests at stake. I would be happy to make the correction, or validate the existing design, but in this particular case, I felt the builder lacked the skills to validate his own claims. I refuted them with methodic testing, and leaving it would leave a question mark hanging over the project, so in the end, I got frustrated and hostile.

It is also good to keep in mind, that some posters can run into periods, where they have to answer a lot of questions every day, so its best not to read too much into the "tone" of each post. Is the poster trying to help? Good! Is the poster trying to help in the exact way someone wants to be helped? Wait and see if someone else wants to help. From my perspective, this can happen in situations where I dont just "give the answer", but give the tools to find the answer, or make requests for how someone can make it easier for me to help them. A very common example is question for BOM items. I really dont want to spend my time helping someone step by step/mail-by-mail, so I request that people start by filling out everything they can, and gather up the blanks into one message. If the next mail is "sure, but I just want to make sure about these switches" and I get another one the next day about the voltage rating on  the caps, I do get non-plussed, not because they are unsure of the switch, or the voltage rating, but because my request for gathering up the questions instead of flooding my mail box has been ignored.

For tone, recently answering a question in the Symmetrical FET thread (Giving a 100% goal oriented answer, while the poster was in fact interested in process), I was asked if I was annoyed with the question. Its great to give me the opportunity to make it clear I was not annoyed instead of assuming I was. It also gives me a chance to reflect on communication style, making sure to catch nuances in the questions better.

Issues like these have nothing to do with the builders or my expertise - its more a matter of striking the right balance between what we know, and what we are trying to achieve.

And hey!, I rewarded myself the yellow belt in electronics a few months ago - like in Judo, noone reaches the black belt level on their first day.

Gustav

 

[johnheath]

Jakob: Yes you and I could probably talk to each other even though we come from different countries... and I see your point concerning a defensive attitude towards designers with economic interests in questions needing advises for future benefits...

And i guess that sometimes amateurs like me (or musician) get hammered for no reason or clue. And as you say ... it would be rather pointless to try to regulate people to answer or regulate their answers... we all can benefit from all the knowledge floating around here.

Regards

/John


DerEber: I am not personally affected so much and don't worry much about it... this is something I have seen in quite a few threads and I remember when I was Active on "Gretch pages" a few years ago and it was incredible how people were behaving there... as long as you loved Gretsch guitars no matter what it was fine, but as soon as you critisized a Gretsch guitar you beame an outcast with no possibility to recover. This is not the case here though.

Best regards

/John

 

[johnheath]

Gutstav: I see your Point and I can see why someone trying to answer a question time and time again with no response getting a bit upset.

We have a saying in sweden: An expert can explain Everything to a thousand fools, but a fool can ask a question that a thousand experts can't answer... I guess that when it comes down to Electronics and stuff I am that fool

Best regards

John

 

[Gustav]

We have a saying in sweden: An expert can explain Everything to a thousand fools, but a fool can ask a question that a thousand experts can't answer... I guess that when it comes down to Electronics and stuff I am that fool

A beginner and a fool are entirely different things. Making sure that distinction is upheld seems to be more of a norm here than most places on the world wide web. If things are sliding, its good to bring it up, so we can take a moment to reflect - none of us are perfect, of course.

Gustav

 

[abbey road d enfer]

It is a subject that is prone to unlimited discussions.
As an administrator, I have the duty to be always courteous and gracious, but I'm only human; as a result, sometimes I get somewhat exasperated, like any other member giving an answer and facing a person who asks questions but in fact does not want to admit he has wrong preconceived opinions, or does not read the answer in its entirety, and keeps asking the same question over and over again. You, yourself, have been guilty of this mortal sin  8) only today! I gave you a tip about putting the HPF between xfmr and grid resistor, and you asked the same question minutes later! Don't worry, I'm not angry, but felt I had to make a little reprimand.
Again, as a moderator, I think we have a duty to be as courteous as can be, but also sometimes we need to remind members that reading the whole answer and trying to digest it as much as possible is also part of courtesy.
Members do not have the same restraint, as long as they respect the basic courtesy rules. In every group, there are excellent members who could be moderators, but apparently prefer the  extra freedom of being just members, because it gives them more freedom to criticize laziness or stubbornness, and allows them to make lapidary answers.
I may sometimes be strongly opinionated, and may express it in a rather firm way, and maybe somebody may get hurt; I apologize for that, but, as I said, I'm just a human.
I believe there are plenty of opportunities to right wrong, so I would say that when such a situation occurs, it is important to argue in the most pragmatic way, and not let the fire smolder.

 

[johnheath]

Yes, I hear you...and just for the record I don't compare fools with beginners in any way... and this forum is great as mentioned before.

It is hard to get all the information that can be given here anywhere else so I say to all... keep posting

regards

/John

 

[johnheath]

Abbey: Haha - yes, I asked the same question today... it is because I did not understand... you see, I might know Judo and how to play the guitar but I am struggling to understand the complexity of audio designs, calculations and rules of thumbs concerning Electronic stuff ... hence the questions

And as a beginner I sometimes have to swallow answers in a slow and thoughtful manner to see the entire picture.

Best regards

/John

 

[micaddict]

Good thread and interesting topic.

There's much to say about this, but most important IMO is to give other posters the benefit of the doubt, at least until it's crystal clear someone is out to get you .
This holds for "normal" social contact (face to face) and much more so on the internet, where you don't have the opportunity to look one and other in the eyes.
Very often intentions are not as bad as they seem and once you over-react the back and forth misery begins.

 

[johnheath]

I guess that is the curse of the internet related Communication... we are missing facial expressions, body language and all the subtle signals we are facing in real Life Communication... small errors in Spelling, building sentences and what not might be misunderstood. But also what you say it is important to be cool enough and not react instantly to all these misunderstandings.

/John

 

[bernbrue]

Interesting discussion. I see more and more people around here asking questions they could have answered on their own with a bit of thinking before asking.

I try not to  answer questions of the "Quick question" type, like "do I need to take the resistors out of the plastic bag before I solder them in ?"

I think the species of users asking SIRI what they could do before they leave their house is growing constantly.
Bernd

 

[ruffrecords]

When answering a question, it is often hard to know just how much knowledge the person asking has. Pitch the answer in too basic a fashion and you risk offending them, pitch it too high and they may simply repeat the question because they did not understand the answer.

That said, I think this group has exceptionally good manners. The signal to noise in the Brewery is quite poor but that is only to be expected, In the technical areas it is by far and away the most civilised of all the groups I belong to. For anyone who wonders how bad it can get, just lurk for a while in rec.audio.pro.

Cheers

Ian

 

[johnheath]

Word

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'll go ahead and apologize now.  ;D ;D

I don't know any experts who were born knowing everything so most are more that willing to share and pay back, to maintain positive Karma.

Beginners today do not know how lucky they are to have the wealth of educational resources at their finger tips thanks to WWW. A forum like this should not be everybody's first stop for answers (WIKI and Google are your friend), but surely the second or third, if they draw a blank elsewhere. Sometimes you need to know what correct words to search. Just like looking up a word in the dictionary you need to have some idea of the spelling.

If someone tries to help you troubleshoot a circuit and asks questions, make some effort to answer all the questions.

I agree this is one of the better forums for human engagement, with mutual respect. That takes all of us behaving well.

JR

 

[johnheath]

I agree fully... I always try to solve my "mysteries" on my own but sometimes I just get stuck without new ideas and that is when I turn to this Place.

I think it is good to mention as well that I (and probably many more) am very grateful for all good answers that actually teaches me more and more about the subject... Learning is of course a major part of trying on your own.

Far from an expert but everyday when I work on my stuff I learn something and that is a great feeling for me... even if I not always understand immediately.

/John

 

[zebra50]

(WIKI and Google are your friend),

Good point John. May I also add 'BOOKS' to that little list. ;-)

 

[JohnRoberts]

(WIKI and Google are your friend),

Good point John. May I also add 'BOOKS' to that little list. ;-)

Back in the 70s/80s I bought books I read to get technical information to use in design. These days you can find almost anything free instantly via the WWW.  We live in a remarkable time. It is already beginning but WWW can deliver educational programs for almost zero cost. In the future there will be no (good) excuse for remaining ignorant.

JR

 

[L´Andratté]

Let me take this opportunity to (again) express my thankfulness for the fact that so many people in this
forum are so willingly sharing their knowledge and experience. I myself have not come across unfriendly words towards me, although I have asked stupid questions and stated false information.

I think it is a matter of respect that beginners first S(earch)T(he)F(xxxing)A(rchives), to consider answers given, to thank for help, etc.

It is not unfriendly if the heavily contributing members ´enforce´ this - not in hostile yet in clear words.
Civilization must be cultivated, or it fades away, just look at the Occident (;