Balanced discrete class A line input design

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Hey...

Tamas, ur wise words are noted and I as dont have the skills or equipment to trial n error somthing like this I guess just using a 990 in place would be easier...

PRR, ideally a differential line receiver ye - idea was to have this in place of say one of those INA chips. API uses a 2510 in their 8200 line mixer...

Best
 
Cramming everything on that 1 by 1 board helps to reduce noise/hum by reducing the area that d*/dt hits. Flux change/time.
Oh am I talking out the wazoo on that thought?
:oops:
 
[quote author="Tekay"]I have just started to compile all the info I've found on the web regarding discrete op's. Pass, Jensen, Hardy and others written words about the subject together with alot of schematics for discrete op's!

In Jensen / Quad Eights designs it's fun to see how the op's evoluted through the years![/quote]

If you are interested I just worked on a not so common quad-eight console and ended up with some of the schematics. The input section has two discrete OA's; one for the mic input and a slightly different design for the line input that are not individually packaged, the components are directly on the main input module PCB. The console was a custom build for Oral Roberts and from what I gather only two of these guys were built.

You can see it here: http://www.recordingconsoles.net/consoles/consoles.htm

Scroll down to quad 8 and you'll see a link to the oral roberts console.

I would just need to scan them in, but if your compliling a list such as this I thought they might be of interest.

Brian
 
daArry,

Some more small error,

The R10 shall be 47 Kohm not 47 ohm, and as the guy`s already have say, the +in transistor collector shall go direct to the T1 base, not via C3.
You can also take away R9, R11 and one of the two diodes pair, so all three constant current source/CCS transistors base share R10 and two diodes in series, so you get a more simple test circuit to start with.

If you will test with all this CCS for the input pair, common emitter and emitter follower transistors, it is very important that you can measure the current this CCS shall draw through the transistors, so you know what you have in each transistor section.

The current mirror and cascade on the input pair is very good for many parameters, but it can be more easy to get your first discrete op-amp stable undertime you experiment with different current and gain in the transistors, use also a 470 ohm to 1 kohm resistor in series with your oscilloscope before you connect it to the output, because a scope cable can get your amp very instable. (if you not have a X1/X10 attenuation probe)

Tamas,
you are absolute right, it is a complex interplay between all this small compensations capasitors, because it depend on the pc-layout, transistor parameters and many other things, but what I mean, it can be more easy to start with out this capacitors and see what is happen from the beginning and then do a cut and try and see which capasitor or capasitors in different value range that will do the best job for the specific instable problem you have.

I like this discussion,
more amp design talk please.
It is fun to share experience,
but we need more PRR fact, he can his homework about the solid state basic rules.

--Bo
 
[quote author="hitchhiker"]hi Brian,

Those schematics would be very cool to see.

Do you think you could show the block
diagram?
[/quote]

I'll see if there is one (block diagram). I'll be back at the studio with this console on tuesday to do some more stuff. All the original schematics are there, I only have the input modules with me. The console has been modified a bit before the current owner, and unfortunately the documentation of such mods are not around as far as I know, so the blocks would not be currently accurate but I'll look.

Did you notice the fader and pan pot values?

The pan pot values for the L-R pan are 2X10k, the Front-Rear pan (now also a Left-Right after current mod, which I only implemented, the mod spec's are someone else's) were (I think) 2x5k. The actual pots had 3 gangs but only two in use.

The faders are not original. The console was originally equipped with VCA automation. Since then at some point standard faders were put in and the VCA stuff eliminated. Oddly the fader value is 600 ohms, a bit low. The board does exibit headroom problems, especially when assigning the direct out, possibly due to having to drive the fader along with this load.

Brian
[/quote]
 
great info Brian,

I have 600 ohm faders that I got from a guy selling Quad 8 cards .
He was planning a mixer but changed his mind. This mixer was to be based on his Quad 8 knowledge. He had all the info in his head and
was too busy to write it down for me.

I still hope to get a 24 ch together one day so any documentation is wonderful to see.

Lance
 
Bo, thanks again. Here's #5:

balanced-input-class-a_5.jpg


Reading your comments tho it's clear this fella is gonna need some testing, poking and fiddling to get it 'right' - as i said in a previous post my knowledge and toolset to do this is null n void tbh, and i kinda just work on the 'plug it in and if works n sounds good to me ear' its all good ethic...

Anyone round ere up for takin charge of the scope testing shizzle?

Buz, I'd love to see that input module and q8 config :thumb:

Cheers all
 
Hey there......

Just scanned the Quad8 schematics I mentioned. I kind of botched the copy and had to piece some parts together but it is generally readable. This is only the Mic/Line in and direct out. Tommorow I'll have access again to the original schematics and this time I think I'll get a real copy made (they're rather large) by someone who can operate a copy machine (apparently I can't)....

It's a neat circuit, took me a minute to trace the path and figure the gain settings out, now I just need some data on the xfrmer, anyone know the ratio on these xformers? If not I'll figure it out tommorow.

Link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~brianwallen/temp/Quad8_OR_Input.PDF

Brian
 
Thanx for the Q8 schematics Brian!
Yet another OP design by Dean I think, will redraw it and put it together with the rest of the Q8 designs in my upcoming "OP amp collection"

The outputstage is close to the Jensen 990 design

Can you make a copy where all values are readable?
 
Can you make a copy where all values are readable?

Try zooming to 200% in acrobat. It becomes much more clear. Let me know if that does not work and I'll repost it after I scan from the originals.

Here, try this, a full JPEG scan of it, very clear....large though. Reducing to B&W makes it pretty bad so I left it color.

http://home.earthlink.net/~brianwallen/temp/Quad8_OR_Input.JPG

Brian
 
> a differential line receiver ye - idea was to have this in place of say one of those INA chips.

What you've drawn is an op-amp, "infinite" gain. Not a line receiver like the INA chips.

Sure, any op-amp can be put inside feedback to make a line receiver. But that is not always the best way. And in my humble opinion, a 1-opamp line receiver is a poor compromise. If you can be discrete, you can build a fine line receiver with the same number of parts as a single op-amp. Actually simpler, because you don't want infinite gain nor universal connection.

> I began with a 4 transistor design and now it's almost a... 990!

Yes, because folks are answering the wrong question. Your first design might work OK, for very-small signals and small common-mode voltage. Put some emitter resistors under the input pair, change some other resistors for bias stability, it could be good. You actually don't want any voltage gain: push-pull outputs can dump 30V peak into an input, and you usually don't want/need more than 10V peak running around inside your box.

How do you feel about DC? Usually when you come from a jack, it might be connected to any darn thing, possibly with DC leaking out of it. DC rejection is an important design spec. Often liberating, because you don't need precision DC accuracy.
 
What you've drawn is an op-amp, "infinite" gain. Not a line receiver like the INA chips.

Ye, I'm able to work that much out from posting the pics that it's an opamp ckt - was just sayin -and prolly not to well- I'd use inplace of what i was(or might still) use as balanced input buffer - which was that INA chip...if it has 'infinite' gain cudnt a trim control be used? assumed i've missed some basics here. :roll:

How do you feel about DC? Usually when you come from a jack, it might be connected to any darn thing, possibly with DC leaking out of it. DC rejection is an important design spec. Often liberating, because you don't need precision DC accuracy.

erm, would some dc blockin would be a good idea in this ckt then? I'l be pluggin in synths mostly, sum balanced some not - was aiming to use this in an input module for a gen purpose mixer...

feelin this big now - gonna go stick my ed in some sand...
 
Brian,

Was wondering if i can just roll with the input config from the line input to the C9 cap shown in that scan u made...? What them switches do (S19 and the one marked 'to be specified by engineering')?

best
 
[quote author="daArry"]Brian,

Was wondering if i can just roll with the input config from the line input to the C9 cap shown in that scan u made...? What them switches do (S19 and the one marked 'to be specified by engineering')?

best[/quote]

Be happy to. I am headed out of town for some work for a day but I'll post when I get back.

Brian
 
[quote author="daArry"]Brian,

Was wondering if i can just roll with the input config from the line input to the C9 cap shown in that scan u made...?

best[/quote]

Hi daArry, I guess after reading your post again, I'm not sure what roll with it means... Let me know.

What them switches do (S19 and the one marked 'to be specified by engineering')?

Switch s19 is the polarity flip switch. The two resistors marked 'specified by engineering' (The switch there is part of the Mic/Line switch S20) are 510 Ohm in this circuit. R41 with R37 form a voltage divider in the feedback path modifying the gain of the OA when switched to MIC input, they are ignored when in Line input. The other specified resistor R39 parallels R38, keeping things the same on the other leg(+), therefore whether the signal from the mic input OA goes down the + or - leg of the amp (selected by S19) the out will be the same. S2 does the same this but is variable for the line input. For some reason I just love the switching configs in this amp.....

I took some picks of the input module today, I'll try posting them, Ive been wanting to try the pic post feature....

Brian
 
Some pictures of that input module.....

inface.JPG


inguts.JPG


And I thought some might like this picture, this is one of two blocks of xformers like this, the strands of 12 or so gauge bare solid wire above with the red leads connected to them are the power rails. The summing busses look the same just not visible from here, bare strands of wire with all the card edge connector leads individally soldered to them. Lots of work for someone.....

rear.JPG


Brian
 
Hey Brian...

When i said can i roll with that i meant can i just use this quad-8 config instead of the 'opamp' i posted with the ckts attached in my prior posts in the thread... It's clear i've gotta learn my shit instead of constantly asking 'will it' or 'can i', or do what i always tend to do and wing my way thru it - i need a line mixer sorted asap so will just build it - if it passes audio, is hiss and hum free I'm happy...

Whats the summing resistors used on the main and aux busses btw?

thanks for the pics :thumb:
 

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