Beggars at Gare du Nord

[DaveP]

Last week my wife traveled alone by train to visit a friend in Amsterdam, she had to change at Gare du Nord in Paris.

Almost immediately she was approached by a woman begging for money, being a kind but naive soul, she offered all the change in her purse.  She was somewhat surprised when the woman just said "Give me more money".  My wife then showed her that she had no notes in her purse (she pays by card for most things).  Still the woman continued  "Give me more money" until a worried shop owner came out and told the woman to get lost!

After this she was approached by 6 more women as she tried to get across the station and she finally realised that it was a gang working the place.

This is one of the reasons that Brexit has happened because being in the EU means that you can't control who comes to your country.  I read that they are Eastern Europeans, I can't imagine French nationals doing this kind of scam.

DaveP

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Hi Dave,
I could point you to many young french national doing exactly the same... and some were my friend some years ago!
We call them 'punk a chien' in french!

 

[MagnetoSound]

Wow, that's a pretty nationalist view, Dave.

Nothing to do with the grand larceny perpetrated by the world banks ten years ago, then?

If you promote the idea of greedy entrepreneurism, but deny some the opportunity of access, what do you expect will happen?

There is poverty everywhere. We see the ugly side of it wherever wealth is concentrated.

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

Magnetosound,
I can t really speak for others country but from what i ve seen in other european big city what Dave point is totally true: gang of scammers organised.

Though, I don t agree with Dave about the categorisation of scammers : eastern, people country native people,.. they are the same.

I think you say "dogs eat dogs' in english... this is not related to poverty or origins, just human behavior.

One of the 'friend' i had at the time was on a wheelchair... because it was easier to gain pity (read money) than being on his two feet when begging!

 

[MagnetoSound]

Krivium, yes I understand that it is a gang of scammers. We see a lot this in the UK too, believe it or not, although it generally takes a subtly different form.

My point was, it is not so much the who or the where, but the when.

We have created economic conditions that breed this kind of behaviour - yes, it may be 'natural human behaviour' under these conditions - but these conditions are man-made and avoidable, and the behaviour brought out by poverty is completely avoidable and preventable - and it is completely wrong to attribute it to nationality.

I am old enough to remember a time when you just didn't see begging in Europe.

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

We agree nationality have nothing to do with it. I ve been whitness of same thing in London so yes i believe it.

About the economic condition i don t fully suscribe to it.
I could have added people involved in the bank or financial system as scammers too in my previous comment.

Yes economical conditions push people in streets in poverty. And it is very sad. I would blame greedyness and unequal sharing of richness more than economical conditions (even if it is linked to a point).

 

[MagnetoSound]

I don't think we are arguing on opposite sides here, just a different expression of the problem.

I could have added people involved in the bank or financial system as scammers too in my previous comment.

Of course!

 

[DaveP]

I am surprised that the mayor of Paris has allowed the welcome to Paris (Gare du Nord is where many arrive ) to be taken over by criminal gangs from another country!

Just put into Google "Beggars at Gare du Nord" to see the extent of the problem.

It's naive to think it is just a rich versus poor issue, it's more like a hard versus soft problem.  If it's too hard to fleece people in your own country, then go where people are soft.  Lots of poor people do hard manual labour keeping streets clean and serving in restaurants and fast food joints, but they have their honour and integrity intact.

DaveP

 

[MagnetoSound]

It's naive to think it is just a rich versus poor issue, it's more like a hard versus soft problem.  If it's too hard to fleece people in your own country, then go where people are soft. 

And it's not naive to understand that it is harder to fleece where the people are poor.

Lots of poor people do hard manual labour keeping streets clean and serving in restaurants and fast food joints, but they have their honour and integrity intact.

"It is worth saying something about the social position of beggars, for when one has consorted with them, and found that they are ordinary human beings, one cannot help being struck by the curious attitude that society takes towards them. People seem to feel that there is some essential difference between beggars and ordinary 'working' men. They are a race apart--outcasts, like criminals and prostitutes. Working men 'work', beggars do not 'work'; they are parasites, worthless in their very nature. It is taken for granted that a beggar does not 'earn' his living, as a bricklayer or a literary critic 'earns' his. He is a mere social excrescence, tolerated because we live in a humane age, but essentially despicable.

Yet if one looks closely one sees that there is no ESSENTIAL difference between a beggar's livelihood and that of numberless respectable people. Beggars do not work, it is said; but, then, what is WORK? A navvy works by swinging a pick. An accountant works by adding up figures. A beggar works by standing out of doors in all weathers and getting varicose veins, chronic bronchitis, etc. It is a trade like any other; quite useless, of course--but, then, many reputable trades are quite useless. And as a social type a beggar compares well with scores of others. He is honest compared with the sellers of most patent medicines, high-minded compared with a Sunday newspaper proprietor, amiable compared with a hire-purchase tout--in short, a parasite, but a fairly harmless parasite. He seldom extracts more than a bare living from the community, and, what should justify him according to our ethical ideas, he pays for it over and over in suffering. I do not think there is anything about a beggar that sets him in a different class from other people, or gives most modern men the right to despise him.

Then the question arises, Why are beggars despised?--for they are despised, universally. I believe it is for the simple reason that they fail to earn a decent living. In practice nobody cares whether work is useful or useless, productive or parasitic; the sole thing demanded is that it shall be profitable. In all the modem talk about energy, efficiency, social service and the rest of it, what meaning is there except 'Get money, get it legally, and get a lot of it'? Money has become the grand test of virtue. By this test beggars fail, and for this they are despised. If one could earn even ten pounds a week at begging, it would become a respectable profession immediately. A beggar, looked at realistically, is simply a businessman, getting his living, like other businessmen, in the way that comes to hand. He has not, more than most modem people, sold his honour; he has merely made the mistake of choosing a trade at which it is impossible to grow rich.”

― George Orwell, Down and Out in Paris and London


NB - I do not overlook the distinction between the 'honourable' beggar and the organised gang. But I am guarded against blanket statements casting doubts on the integrity on individuals on the basis of social status.

 

[ruffrecords]

After this she was approached by 6 more women as she tried to get across the station and she finally realised that it was a gang working the place.
DaveP

In 1997 my wife and I visited Paris for a weekend and travelled via Gare du Nord. Even back then there were women begging but not as overtly as you experienced. Back then you had to pay for a supermarket trolley like thing to take your luggage from the station to the nearest taxi rank. The women were begging at the taxi rank. Basically they offered to take your trolley back to the station so they could pocket the returned coin ( I think it was ten francs back then). At least they were doing something for the money. I would not like to say what their ethnicity was but they were dressed in clothes I would associate with eastern europe. For some reason they were all carrying dolls dressed like babies.

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

Dan,

I agree with most of what Orwell said, we have real parasites in financial services and probably most of the chattering classes etc.

But I confined my criticism to the criminal element that has arrived to exploit a situation.

To address your point, there have always been "Sturdy Beggars" in history that were given a shilling to move on to the next parish.  In other words it was expedient to pay them a day's wages (at that time) to get rid of the problem.  You surely understand that for people who had to work for their living, it was a cause of resentment.

I am not talking about people who have mental health issues or have drug or alcohol problems, these should be served by a  caring benefit system.  But there is a criminal element in every society who prey upon the weak and elderly and never hold down a decent job, I have no time for them at all.

DaveP

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

It s been a while since i left Paris but i am not astonished the situation to be more difficult than it was when i lived there.
The 'beggars' your wife met seems to be more aggressive than what i used to seen.
People really living in the streets usually are not aggressive when begging... When they are either they are drunk or under drug influence either mental illness.

When they are aggressive at first there is great chance they are scammer, or the lazy one 'punk a chien' who think you are a sheep and an idiot to be part of the 'system'!

About la gare du nord, this is one of the huge railstation in continental europe and this is difficult to policemen to watch for everythings... especially at the moment where we are still under 'etat d urgence': they are mostly watching for terrorism acts. For so long now that there is many nervous breakdown and burn out with them... and begging is not illegal as long as you are polite.

 

[Scodiddly]

I look at it this way - A "thug" in a "hoodie" (got your attention yet?) on the street might get my wallet, my phone. That would suck, sure.

But if somebody takes away my life savings, forcloses on house, or does something like deny my health insurance when a cancer diagnosis comes up... that'll be a lily-white guy in a business suit, not some scary foreigner.  And it's those guys who've made the bottom rung of the ladder so desperate.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

15 years ago, these people were Kosovars, 6 years ago, they were Romanians, today they are "Syrian family"; I would bet many of them are French citizens, using the tragedy of the day to attract pity. Closing the borders wouldn't change a thing. Ethnic purification may... Is the prejudice so important that it is worth sacrificing the ideals of the Age of Enlightenment?
After all, it's a simple police issue. The police has been bashed, mistreated and sacrificed in the name of false liberty and reduction of the state budget, there are the consequences.

 

[tands]

I look at it this way - A "thug" in a "hoodie" (got your attention yet?) on the street might get my wallet, my phone. That would suck, sure.

But if somebody takes away my life savings, forcloses on house, or does something like deny my health insurance when a cancer diagnosis comes up... that'll be a lily-white guy in a business suit, not some scary foreigner.  And it's those guys who've made the bottom rung of the ladder so desperate.

 

[DaveP]

Several people have made the point that poverty is the cause of this behaviour.  I don't agree,  the examples quoted by Scodiddly and Tands  show that the rich do exactly the same.

There is no excuse for scamming people period, it is a lack of conscience and morality that allows some people to rip off others.

Regarding security at Gard du Nord:
Someone has made a decision not to have a visible security presence at the gateway to Paris.  Maybe, because of the 'etat d urgence' the Mayor wants to make tourists think that everything is normal by not having visible police or soldiers there.  This has allowed a gang to move in to fleece and harass travelers instead, not very welcoming as many have commented.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187147-i14-k8655656-Beggars_at_Gare_de_Nord-Paris_Ile_de_France.html

Gard du Nord should be as high on the list of places to be protected as an airport, as it is where thousands of people are congregated in a confined space.

DaveP

 

[L´Andratté]

..., being a kind but naive soul, she offered all the change in her purse.

One could think "big-hearted"?

That woman was probably a junkie or some other person living a life of a social troglodyte, numbed and hardend in a world of violence and hurt.
Not to excuse her behaviour, I hope your wife is not taking it too bad!
And of course you are not really helping anyone by giving her a few coins
(especially if they are spent on fast poison or are collected by someone alse later),
but the gesture is something important regardless  of the circumstances.

The age of enlightenment is also important, I just wasn´t aware we´re living in it

 

[tands]

I don't think a beggar asking repeatedly for money is similar to a ceo raising insulin prices as much as possible because people need it to live, so much that some can't afford it and die because they don't have it. My point is that one is much worse than the other, not that they are similar. I wouldn't describe the lily executive's actions as a scam, it's murder. I'm also not sure asking for money is a scam, as nothing was offered in return.

 

[MagnetoSound]

Dave, my point was really about the juxtaposition of neoliberal entrepreneurial values with extreme hardship and desperation. A powderkeg of nihilistic and amoral avenues, imo.

I agree a police presence would have made your wife feel a lot safer. Perhaps the lack of it, and the municipal dereliction it reveals, is another indication of the hardened times in which we live.

Best,
Dan

 

[KrIVIUM2323]

I don t think there is no policemen presents. They are probably there undercover, and there is a huge amount of camera watching continously...
As i said earlier policemen duty at the moment is not pointed to this annoyment.

And political choices were made to reduce Policemen in charge of this kind of problems, there was once 'proximity policemen' who was in charge of this kind of troubles... but Sarkozy considered theyr duty as useless so dismantled the units : they used to be in charge of troublesome suburbs too, where they tryed to have better communication with youngster in particular, in an effort to keep this place quiet. Sarkozy told that the duty of policemen wasn t to have football games in the ghetto, nor to discuss with people... then he dismantled them, riots happened around 2007 with some crazy footage for media justifying intolerance and violence against the suburbs habitants... and i can testify about that because it happened just behind my door and policemen behavior just schoked me, some of my neighbours being controlled up to 5/6 time a day because they are from african or arabian origins, and all this without any hint of politness...
I do think it led to the rise of intolerance and populism in France in the last ten years, as well as the fear of other culture... all this for being reelected...


Back to gare du nord: complaints about this should not be at Paris Mayor but to mr Peppy, director of Sncf. But i think this will have no answer because... they have other trouble at the time: there is huge issues of security because lack of maintenance, reduced personal and budget on the whole railway system in France.

This is all results from a political plan from french right hand parties in my view: they want to dismantle every social/ state owned organisation for an ultra liberal model (i do think in some ways they are more neo liberals than in the U.S. ), and Sncf is not private, in most part it is owned by french government.

They create conditions for issues to happend then they point them saying "you see this don t work as issues happend!" Clever.

And because political left parties are really not good too(or have forgoten they should not fight for their own privilege)... this leave us in this kind of situation.