[BUILD] 1108 DIY project and PCB layout

[MidnightArrakis]

Thanks again. Good to hear/know.

I really appreciate that reply!

You're welcome!!! No problem!!!

Thank you for attaching those PCB-related companies in TN have someone else make it for me. That's my first choice.

Good choice!!!

Etching would be a last-resort

Another good choice!!!

although what I wrote earlier gave the impression I was more enthusiastic about learning to etch at home than I realistically am.

Curbing certain enthusiasm can actually be a good thing!!!

even if I have to send off for it with the etch files provided on the Mnats page

Either send me a link to this page or send me the files that you are speaking of. I have a program that can review them first before you go sending them off to be fabricated. Far too many PCB-design files on this forum are truly garbage, no matter who originally designed them.

Last question, and I'm afraid to ask it because I'm insecure about embarrassing myself around smart people

Never be too embarrassed, OK??? All of us do stupid shit sooner or later. I'm famous for that myself!!!

I could see that particular photo revealed a CM-2511 mounted to a board that clearly said "Cinemag CM-2511 (c) 2011 mnats."

Is this the PCB you are speaking of?

Is this a PCB I'm going to need to design with something like KiCAD or are transformer board etch files available anywhere??

You could easily design this PCB or I could do it for you. There's nothing special about designing this PCB other than having to create a custom PCB footprint for the transformer. Your call!!!

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[seanweaverguitar]

Is this the PCB you are speaking of?

That's the exact PCB I was referring to, yes. If that's an offer to help out, by all means, I appreciate it, and would take you up on that offer.

I'm still in the research, planning, and self-education phase at the moment (currently reading every single word of this entire thread and compiling it all into an Adobe InDesign document complete with schematics and literature from dead links pulled back up from the Internet Archive).

I realize if I jump into this (and I should because if I don't, then I'm caving to analysis paralysis) it's going to be a process since I've not yet built anything truly DIY and this would be my first venture into building anything from the ground up...yes I did the Hairball kits and yes they went well (Lola and the blue stripe; to make things worse, I have boxes of three more 1176s and another Lola that never got built and still need to be. Life got so busy from 2018 on, but between then and now I was reading a lot of '50s electronics books, watching tutorials, learning tube guitar amp circuits and began to service my own guitar amps...realistically I couldn't read a schematic at the end of 2017; now RC filters, inductance, capacitive reactance, impedance, etc. make enough sense to not feel completely lost or overwhelmed, and I can follow/read a schematic generally pretty well, even when certain parts of it aren't entirely clear to me. At least I've come this far and pursued self-education this far without giving up, getting bored, or stopping, which must mean something. The only other thing I really stuck with that much was the guitar itself. So it's probably time to fish or cut bait, and here I am again still wanting to build this 1108 mic pre).

I'll work through the rest of this thread over the coming week or two and get a better idea of what's in store but yes, that's the PCB I was referring to.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

From my perspective of "Life & Things".....I've just come up with >>> THIS!!! <<< TA-A-A-A---DAA-A-AHH!!!




>> This 3D CAD-model was created in accordance
to the CINEMAG published datasheet mechanical
dimensions and specifications. The RED DOT
indicates "Pin-1" per the datasheet.

[From Dead Links] -- Sounds like a cool name for a "Grunge" band!!!

[Analysis Paralysis] -- Sounds like either an "Emo" or "New Age" band!!!

>>> Turret Terminals <<<
> These devices are actually
quite small, despite how huge
they may look like here. Pick one:




[that's the PCB I was referring to] -- OK.....GREAT!!! Now.....would you prefer a couple of either small MOLEX or SAMTEC connectors or "solder-turrets" (see above) on the PCB in order to attach your external wiring to the PCB? Or.....?

[I was reading a lot of '50s electronics books] -- I enjoy occasionally watching various YouTube videos from the 1950's and 1940's that show how telephone equipment and switching-offices, radios and televisions and other types of electronic equipment was manufactured and -- hand-assembled -- back then!!! I then try to imagine what it must have been like to design and build all of that complex electronic equipment --- BY HAND!!! --- with no automated machinery, no computers, no calculators and on and on and on. Just skilled American workers doing an honest days work for very little money, yet they "Made America Great In The Beginning" and got us all where we are today. Seeing these videos really makes me appreciate all of what it took to live and work way back then.

Sadly, in today's world nobody gives a shit, illegals are flooding into our country, one political party is doing all they can to condemn and destroy their opposing political party, we can barely afford the gas to drive to and from our jobs or pay for our food!!! Bend over and kiss your a$$ goodbye!!!

Let me know how things are going, OK???

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[MidnightArrakis]

Meanwhile.....moving right along.....

>> Pick one of the following PCB-assembly layouts:





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[seanweaverguitar]

Thank you again so much @MidnightArrakis ! I'm familiar with turret terminals from tube amp builders (although all of the ones I own and have worked on have always been eyelet boards). Since I'm still working through the thread (which is solving a lot of questions while creating other new questions), I'm not 100% sure yet about which PCB layout above, or whether to go with connectors or turrets....but I think connectors. This is the first I've thought about the question of turret vs. MOLEX vs. SAMTEC connectors so I will update with a real answer as soon as I sort out the rest of what follows in this note back:

To answer your PCB layout question ("pick one")....

I think the first layout, without an XLR connector on-board, and with connections on each side of the transformer. But it seems the new questions (and whatever those answers become) that are coming up as I work through the build thread would affect the board discussion, so....

Issue/Question 1: If I'm going to put in a pad and phantom power, would that be another tiny board addition (or just a breadboard addition)?

Issue 2 (not so much of a question but I do need to sort this out): Speaking of the transformer PCB, I had been thinking I'd go with the CM-2511 since several others used it and I can get it from Hairball, but since I see the BOM calls for a CMMI-7C. I want to send a note out to Cinemag and/or find out if there's ANY availability anymore for it, and if so, how much $$ we're talking about. I saw someone else in this build thread used a UTC O-2. It has come to my attention where there are some for sale in-town, literally (and locally).

Can I just message you when I sort things out? Obviously the details would affect the PCB, and in the case of buying an old UTC, that wouldn't be a PCB-mount anyway.

By the way, I just downloaded Kicad a few moments ago. Guess learning the software comes next!

And before I forget to answer your earlier question to send you the self-etch files:

Either send me a link to this page or send me the files that you are speaking of. I have a program that can review them first before you go sending them off to be fabricated.

It's at this link: http://mnats.net/files/1108_V1.1a_DOC.pdf

 

[MidnightArrakis]

I think connectors. This is the first I've thought about the question of turret vs. MOLEX vs. SAMTEC connectors so I will update with a real answer as soon as I sort out the rest of what follows in this note back:

I think the first layout, without an XLR connector on-board, and with connections on each side of the transformer.

Issue/Question 1: If I'm going to put in a pad and phantom power, would that be another tiny board addition (or just a breadboard addition)?

Issue 2: Speaking of the transformer PCB, I had been thinking I'd go with the CM-2511 since several others used it and I can get it from Hairball, but since I see the BOM calls for a CMMI-7C. I want to send a note out to Cinemag and/or find out if there's ANY availability anymore for it, and if so, how much $$ we're talking about. I saw someone else in this build thread used a UTC O-2. It has come to my attention where there are some for sale in-town, literally (and locally).

Can I just message you when I sort things out? Obviously the details would affect the PCB, and in the case of buying an old UTC, that wouldn't be a PCB-mount anyway.

By the way, I just downloaded Kicad a few moments ago. Guess learning the software comes next!

And before I forget to answer your earlier question to send you the self-etch files:

It's at this link: http://mnats.net/files/1108_V1.1a_DOC.pdf

[This is the first I've thought about the question of turret vs. MOLEX vs. SAMTEC connectors] -- OH, YEAH??? If that is the case, then I would strongly suggest that you take a good long look at -- EVERYTHING -- that your project will require and write them down in a notebook. It will be -- A WHOLE LOT BETTER -- for you to first know all of what you are going to be dealing with and -- HOW -- to deal with them >> BEFORE << you start ordering parts!!! This will result in a much better end result.

[I think the first layout, without an XLR connector on-board, and with connections on each side of the transformer] -- You have already implied that this is subject to change, so again.....figure out what you want and how you want it to be, before committing to and/or even thinking about a final decision.

[It has come to my attention] -- SEE??? Everything is subject to change at a moments notice!!!

[Can I just message you when I sort things out?] -- I think I should just go into either "Standby" or "Hibernation" mode until you figure out what it is that you are doing!!!

[I just downloaded Kicad a few moments ago. Guess learning the software comes next!] -- SO!!!.....just to help you out, I have uploaded my entire "KiCAD Videos & Training Materials" folder to an online web-storage account that I maintain and then I got the link to that folder, which will allow you to download the entire shebang to your computer. I believe that the folder size is about 8.1GB in size. I would strongly suggest that you first make a folder on your computer hard-drive and title it something like "KiCAD Training Videos" and then download this entire folder of mine into your new folder. Then, you can play these videos at your own pace and learn from there. Here is the link:

https://mega.nz/folder/MmJFlA6Q#tN2tZ9fY5M8d5CJyg2WauQ

Here are some YouTube PCB-design videos:





























[to answer your earlier question to send you the self-etch files: It's at this link:] -- I thought you were referring to "GERBER" files, not some stupid PDF-image file!!! I don't work with PDF-image files!!! I only work in "reality"!!!

GOOD LUCK!!! ..... And, let me know whenever you get everything figured out, OK???

Until then....."Happy Trails...To You"!!!.....

/

 

[seanweaverguitar]

Thank you again @MidnightArrakis - I really appreciate that link to your entire "KiCAD Videos & Training Materials" folder! 8.1GB is small to me (I live in a world of video production at the moment in a roomful of drives) so I'll download the entire thing right now and begin the process of learning even if it takes a really long time (I'm really good at long-term projects).

I'll let you know when I figure out what I'm doing. The official word came back from Hairball this morning that there are no plans to restock the boards so your training material library will be the difference between this project ever happening for me or not. Thank you for sharing that with me. If it takes a few years to learn everything that I need to, okay!

I appreciate you giving me a better idea of what it is to pursue learning now.

Best,

Sean

 

[dmp]

Hey @seanweaverguitar
These are really cool preamps - awesome that you are on the search to build some.
I built 4 of them years back when this forum was really thriving. I used UTC Ouncers (O-1 / O-2) which are small mic transformers (they were used on the predecessor, UA610!). They are great preamps. I skipped the LDR and just used a pot. Simple and good. I'll see if I can draw up a board in EasyADA. It would be a shame for these to be unavailable. Unfortunately I just ordered boards and I try to get a few ready at once because the shipping is so much.
Have you checked that the output transformer is available from Hairball? For awhile they were out of stock

 

[seanweaverguitar]

@dmp - If I say hi Dan, I hope I'm using the right name. I read every word of this thread and remember your build from my study so far….omitting R2 and using a 1 meg pot in place of R2 & the vactrol (with the wiper of the pot going to C2) is something I took note of.

I'll have to double-check with Hairball on the EA-5002. After I found out there are no plans to re-stock the main boards, I hit "pause." At the encouragement of another member above to do so, I literally *just* started some self-training on KiCAD, thinking that would be my last chance/hope to try this build….I hear you on shipping. Of course if you ever do draw up a board, let me know and I’ll make sure you get taken care of.

The other thing that happened after hearing there are no more main boards for sale was going on a long head-trip about “should I even get into anything like this at all without a scope, isolation transformer, signal generator, capacitance substitution box, etc. etc. etc….basically a hobby lab with some test equipment?” Once I started reading up about dampening and zobel networks in particular. I understand a lot more about electronics than most other guitar players I know....and virtually nothing relative to many (most) of the people on this forum. But I do know enough to keep learning if it takes me five more years to get there!

 

[dmp]

It doesn't look like you can order the EA-5002 individually or anywhere except the 1176 kit
Might have to reach out to Mike at Hairball and see what the status is.
Or, use a Cinemag
Or, the UTM
Or, the Sowter

 

[dmp]

Hey I got a start on this! I added Phantom/Pad/Phase and a level pot. The layout and routing still needs some work.
Switched to the Jensen input (because they sound great). May adapt the footprint to accept the Ouncer too.
If the EA5002 isn't going to be available, I'll need to adapt it for one of the others. That'd be a bummer though because I like them a lot.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Hey I got a start on this! I added Phantom/Pad/Phase and a level pot. The layout and routing still needs some work.
Switched to the Jensen input (because they sound great). May adapt the footprint to accept the Ouncer too.
If the EA5002 isn't going to be available, I'll need to adapt it for one of the others. That'd be a bummer though because I like them a lot.

Does this PCB really need to be a big as it is? It looks as though it could be made a whole lot smaller. In other words, there is a lot of empty and wasted space on this board.

Where do these routes go that "just stop" and don't go anywhere?



>> CINEMAG CM-2511 Transformer:



>> Mic Input Transformer (BEYER Dynamic)


[If the EA5002 isn't going to be available] -- If you search around on this forum, apparently there are some members on here who are quite capable of winding transformers for you. Check them out!!!

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[Whoops]

If the EA5002 isn't going to be available, I'll need to adapt it for one of the others. That'd be a bummer though because I like them a lot.

Talk to David Geren from Cinemag, a lovely person, ask him to buy a Cinemag UA-5002, he has the winding plans, and Cinemag builds to order so they will be able to wind it for you.

Or get from UTM, great people, great quality, great price.

Or it can be winded also, I will wind one myself. If I remember correctly the Lam size it's the same as the output transformer used in the Neve 1073 (1290)

 

[dmp]

Looks like Hairball will have some EA5002 in a couple weeks. Mike is super low at the moment, but has some on the way.
Mike at Hairball is a great guy and these Ed Anderson transformers are excellent in my experience.

 

[seanweaverguitar]

Super happy to see these follow-ups....

Thank you so much for following up on this @dmp. Mike is a great guy….I built the first Lola with my Dad as a father/son project at the end of 2017/early ’18, and then a Rev A in the same month. Good to hear he’s got some EA5002’s on the way. Can’t thank you enough for getting going on the PCB and I’m glad you added Phantom/Pad/Phase and the level pot.

@Whoops — I appreciate the additional transformer information!

@MidnightArrakis - a continual thank you for your input on all of this. Since I’d basically promised you to lay low until learning KiCad and figuring out what I’m doing, I didn’t want to bother you….but did want to let you know that I have begun taking the KiCad course and can already tell it’s going to be liberating (even if it takes me awhile to get smart like the rest of you). Much appreciated.

On an added note, I was browsing through your posts and can see you’re a total pro at this stuff, along with the mechanical design/layout stuff. I really value your input so thanks again for calling me out on the foundations I need to get together first. I realized after I sent you that weblink from the Mnats website (A) I didn't know any better about the real-world of what a fabrication house would need, and (B) needed to!

Speaking of which….

Along with the KiCad training materials, do you have any suggestions on what I should pursue learning for the mechanical/chassis end of things (?)….when that time comes. All that software is probably really expensive production house stuff, or not? Is there any accessible CAD software for mechanical stuff/chassis designs? Obviously right now my focus is on the KiCad training course.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Super happy to see these follow-ups....

Thank you so much for following up on this @dmp. Mike is a great guy….I built the first Lola with my Dad as a father/son project at the end of 2017/early ’18, and then a Rev A in the same month. Good to hear he’s got some EA5002’s on the way. Can’t thank you enough for getting going on the PCB and I’m glad you added Phantom/Pad/Phase and the level pot.

@Whoops — I appreciate the additional transformer information!

@MidnightArrakis - a continual thank you for your input on all of this. Since I’d basically promised you to lay low until learning KiCad and figuring out what I’m doing, I didn’t want to bother you….but did want to let you know that I have begun taking the KiCad course and can already tell it’s going to be liberating (even if it takes me awhile to get smart like the rest of you). Much appreciated.

On an added note, I was browsing through your posts and can see you’re a total pro at this stuff, along with the mechanical design/layout stuff. I really value your input so thanks again for calling me out on the foundations I need to get together first. I realized after I sent you that weblink from the Mnats website (A) I didn't know any better about the real-world of what a fabrication house would need, and (B) needed to!

Speaking of which….

Along with the KiCad training materials, do you have any suggestions on what I should pursue learning for the mechanical/chassis end of things (?)….when that time comes. All that software is probably really expensive production house stuff, or not? Is there any accessible CAD software for mechanical stuff/chassis designs? Obviously right now my focus is on the KiCad training course.

[I have begun taking the KiCad course and can already tell it’s going to be liberating] -- That's -- GREAT!!! -- to hear about!!! Just keep at it "one-step-at-a-time" and you will get the hang of it before too long. Actually, "repetition" is the key with learning not only how to design a good PCB, but also with learning how to use the software. A known way to embed knowledge into your brain is to actually -- write down -- what you have just learned onto some notebook paper. The process of writing down something you have just learned causes your brain to "remember" what you have just learned.

Maybe go through a session of 3 KiCAD training videos (because they're all so short) and then write down the details and highlights of those 3 videos in a notebook. Then.....after you have finished writing up a session.....WATCH THOSE 3 VIDEOS AGAIN!!! The combined repetition of watching the videos and writing the details down will -- burn -- that information deep into your brain-cells, so later on when you are designing a new PCB.....everything about the designing process will be automatic!!! YAY!!! YOU'VE LEARNED SOMETHING NEW!!!

Keep me posted about your progress, OK???

/

 

[MidnightArrakis]

do you have any suggestions on what I should pursue learning for the mechanical/chassis end of things (?)

>> For me to suggest anything along these lines to you would be pointless as I "No Can Do"!!! Despite all of the mechanical design projects you may have seen in my "Design Portfolio".....I don't have a college degree in "Mechanical Engineering" and I have never been trained in performing this type of work. I have always "just had a knack" for doing this type of stuff and in knowing how to get things done.

Maybe it is because when I was a small child during my 6- to 10-year old period, that Santa Claus had given me gifts like 2 "Erector Sets" and other types of "mechanical toys". So, while other kids my age were out running around playing cowboys or racing on their bicycles, I was inside my bedroom building buildings and construction-site platforms using all of the metal-beam pieces and tons of screws and nuts. So, while I may have a "natural knack" now to design electronic chassis and PCBs, hardly any companies will hire me as an employee simply because I don't have a college degree, despite all of the complex and very expensive electronic equipment I have designed without one!!!

EDIT: Maybe this video below might help you get started with what it takes to "go from an idea in your head to an actual mechanical design" using a mechanical-design CAD software program. And, as it coincidentally turns out, the dude in this video shows you how to get yourself started by using the same CAD-software program as I use for my designs. Check it out:

All that software is probably really expensive production house stuff, or not?

>> The CAD-design software that are used by companies is expensive. I personally forked-out $7,600 for my license of the "SolidWorks Premium" 3D Mechanical Design CAD-modeling program.

Is there any accessible CAD software for mechanical stuff/chassis designs?

>> There is, but.....that also presents to you a "conundrum" situation. There are some good mechanical design programs that are -- FREE -- that you can find on the Internet. But, as long as you have no ideas and/or plans to perform mechanical designing "as a job" and you are only going to stick to DIY projects at home, then these -- FREE -- CAD programs will probably do you just fine. As you can probably guess, applying for a job with some company and you have on your resume' that you are in "Expert" with using a mechanical-design program called "TinkerCAD" probably won't get you very far!!! Companies are looking for either AutoDesk/AutoCAD, ProE (Windchill) or SolidWorks on a resume.

Check out this short video:



Of all of the CAD-design programs listed in this video, the #1 program shown here called "SolidEdge" would be your best bet, as there are quite a few companies looking for "SolidEdge Designers" to hire.

Obviously right now my focus is on the KiCad training course.

>> Keep at it!!! You'll "get the hang of it" before too long!!!



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[MidnightArrakis]

Here's another one:

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[Geariatric]

It’s been great to see the flurry of action on this thread this year! I’m in a similar position: looking to build some of these having waited too long on the sidelines. I guess I thought the PCBs at Hairball would be ongoing thing.

I’ve been enjoying all these new posts and learning as much as my addled brain will allow.

I tend to be something of a lurker by nature, so I wanted to chime in to say there’s more interest lurking around out here!

 

[duantro]

Hey MidnightArrakis I’m sure everyone appreciates your input, but maybe you should start a thread about cad apps and use that as a link for your response. I’ve seen at least a couple of threads recently where you’ve posted so many links that are clogging up what the thread is about.