Building a small recording/reverb room.

[Goblin]

Hey. Hope I posted in the right sub forum.

I'm building, slowly and step by step, a recording room away from my main mixing room. It's across the hallway. It's super quiet. Small. Kinda like 2 meters and a half by 2 meters and a half (can't find my measurer). It's odlly shape in a way that helps. The room will be stripped of everything, only the walls will be left. A plumber will secure the water tubes.

I have worked in small recording rooms, and know my way around them. I'll throw a snake and aux the vocals through an amp with reverb. Record vocals using the materials of the walls or dampen it. Crank up those old fender amps and get the characteristics of the amps. Maybe put my movable soldering station there.

My question is, as you can see in the pictures, the room is stripped of the wall material. I was planning in just placing cement on the floor, and plaster the walls. Quick and easy, and I'm ready to go. And use materials that I have at hand for dampening or changing the sound. Materials that I can move easily by hand. Like wooden planks and so on.

Then I'l get creative. Cover it with tiles and slidable wooden panels. Place removable dampening materials to deaden the room that will hang from a tube.

The question is, is it best practice to place cement on the floor and plaster the walls to get a quick start, or is there another way of doing this?

Is there any trick of the trade worth mentioning? (using heavier plaster mix for better sound, etc)

Any recomendations?

Room looking left near right wall:


Room looking right near left far wall (where my cat is):

 

[chilidawg]

With such a small room, regardless of the weird the shape it has, or the kind of treatments you can think of to apply to it, you will always have a major problem with standing waves at the lower end of the audio spectrum. Other than turning it into a single person vocal booth for recording voice-over jobs (at best), it will be very difficult to get a good, recorded sound that is not BOOMY, especially from a cranked-up guitar amplifier. Also, in case you forgot, in reality there are many people who has a phobia or in general just dislike being in a tight space.

 

[Goblin]

With such a small room, regardless of the weird the shape it has, or the kind of treatments you can think of to apply to it, you will always have a major problem with standing waves at the lower end of the audio spectrum. Other than turning it into a single person vocal booth for recording voice-over jobs (at best), it will be very difficult to get a good, recorded sound that is not BOOMY, especially from a cranked-up guitar amplifier. Also, in case you forgot, in reality there are many people who has a phobia or in general just dislike being in a tight space.

Thanks for the opinion, it is completely valid and something to think about. But **it has** to be turned into a recording room/reverb room.

It will have it's own sound qualities that I will come to know, so I can work em', so no biggie there, not the first time I've worked in small rooms. Or closets, or houses (halls, halways, bathrooms, living rooms, stairs, archs) all great sounding with little EQ. Only using one processor, an EQ. Good mic placement. Close mics and ambient mics. And good amp placement. Everything has it's unique sound. Can't reproduce that. An ideal room will give you an ideal sound.

I've thought of using my living room, but is open, noisy, my cats love the tolls of the amps, and consideration for my housemate and neighbor stops me in doing so.

Once I get to know the room I can shape the sound easily for any instrument. It's not "ideal", but a lot of great stuff hasn't been recorded in ideal settings. Definitevly it will have its "own sound". Maybe not.

Recording bass, I'll do some mix and recording tricks.

I though previously of the phobia problem. The musician can be in the mixing room playing with cans or listening to the monitors while the amps are in the recording room. Hell the musician can have a lower volume double signal on an amp if the musician wants so.

If I damp it dead, I could record a drummer in there.

Great records have been recorded in small and in not ideal spaces.

So, cement and plaster, or is there a better way to start, a trick of the trade?

 

[JohnRoberts]

My sense is that "chambers" for real acoustic reverb used larger physical spaces.

examples

JR

 

[soapfoot]

This following isn’t intended to be a bummer… just to hopefully save you a lot of money and heartache.

A chamber is one of those things that’s really not feasible to do as a “multi-purpose” space. The requirements of a good chamber are somewhat peculiar and many are at odds with what makes a good tracking space.

A good chamber almost always needs to be very large (the famous ones are all larger than most peoples’ live rooms!)

They also need to be very stiff and with lots of mass—this goes all the way to the structural framing. And they of course have to be quite reflective

The smallest chamber I’ve heard that actually sounds good is at Sam Phillips in Memphis—it’s about the size of a bedroom. I have no idea why it works as well as it does—probably just luck. Even that is not a classic chamber sound… a bit funkier…but in a way that works well

On the other hand I’ve encountered many, many small (or DIY) chambers that didn’t sound any good at all and ended up being a waste of space and money (they usually end up reconfigured as storage spaces).

Without exception, every useful chamber I’ve ever heard was designed and conceived as a chamber before framing even started. But even with that… I’ve encountered many chambers that were purpose-built (costing lots of money) that unfortunately weren’t very useful. Sadly, it never seems to happen the other way around.

I know that’s not an encouraging word, but it may be wise to focus on your tracking application (which will already be a very stiff challenge, IMO, in a small space) and improve your odds of success.

With a too-small space, the best shout is generally to make it as dead as possible. This is obviously at odds with using it a chamber.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[Goblin]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

I know the properties of an echo chamber, think of the famous underground capitol studios ones. (which I think are long gone now)

Think of it as "millisecond slap back echo, small as a lego, multipurpose room, with no view".



I just woke up, but will express my best.

One of the techniques I will apply to that room is throw and amp in there with vox coming through, and using the reveb of the amp.

Probably should have thought the name of the post better, for sure.

"Really Small Multipurpose Recording Room"

Yeah, it will be funky for sure. It will be no cathedral echo. I mean, it's a small room.

How many funk and soul record drums were recorded in small rooms, and somehow managed to sound good? Not "preset" sounding, but good. Rocksteady records, Punk records, Blues Records, they recorded with what they had at hand, and some of them sound totally awesome.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Depending on how serious you want to get you can use active DSP to alter the room's sound characteristics. Sound designers already tweak large auditoriums to alternately add or suppress natural reverb.

JR

 

[Goblin]

Yeah, the cost. If I place tiles then sounds not usuable, will be a problem. The idea is placing super cheap tiles (I already have em), then buy closet doors, at like 5 bucks 7 pieces, put some hooks on the ceiling, then put some bars on the walls and hang heavy removable blankets, and mix and match. Some blankets here, some tile here, you get the idea.

I have worked in proper rooms, which is a breeze, I have worked in rooms with strange resonances, which can become properties of the sound if treated well (yes, a lot if mixing years on this side), and I have recorded in rooms that had good size, but somehow who designed it managed to render it unusable. Maybe the size after insonorisation just wasn't compatible at all with any kind of wave.

Worst case scenario I will damp it dead and use effects to liven it up.

All of this for a relative low cost. Once I know how the rooms sounds, I can bring in the sound technicians with their mics, and take it a step further, and apply "real" materials, and know what I can really do with this room.

As I mentioned before, probably didn't but implied it, idk, this is just a quick n dirty start then I'll work the room.

 

[Goblin]

Yeah

Depending on how serious you want to get you can use active DSP to alter the room's sound characteristics. Sound designers already tweak large auditoriums to alternately add or suppress natural reverb.

JR

Yeah, totally, or damp it dead, and use fx. Boom, done. Instead of having a constant dsp preset for the rooom running. Which is totally attractive and usuable interchanchable at the flip of a switch as well.

I mean, there's one and a thousand ways of using a small room if you have been around for quite a bit.

(machine rooom, jk )

 

[Goblin]

This following isn’t intended to be a bummer… just to hopefully save you a lot of money and heartache.

A chamber is one of those things that’s really not feasible to do as a “multi-purpose” space. The requirements of a good chamber are somewhat peculiar and many are at odds with what makes a good tracking space.

A good chamber almost always needs to be very large (the famous ones are all larger than most peoples’ live rooms!)

They also need to be very stiff and with lots of mass—this goes all the way to the structural framing. And they of course have to be quite reflective

The smallest chamber I’ve heard that actually sounds good is at Sam Phillips in Memphis—it’s about the size of a bedroom. I have no idea why it works as well as it does—probably just luck. Even that is not a classic chamber sound… a bit funkier…but in a way that works well

On the other hand I’ve encountered many, many small (or DIY) chambers that didn’t sound any good at all and ended up being a waste of space and money (they usually end up reconfigured as storage spaces).

Without exception, every useful chamber I’ve ever heard was designed and conceived as a chamber before framing even started. But even with that… I’ve encountered many chambers that were purpose-built (costing lots of money) that unfortunately weren’t very useful. Sadly, it never seems to happen the other way around.

I know that’s not an encouraging word, but it may be wise to focus on your tracking application (which will already be a very stiff challenge, IMO, in a small space) and improve your odds of success.

With a too-small space, the best shout is generally to make it as dead as possible. This is obviously at odds with using it a chamber.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Hey, thanks soap.

My initial idea, is to "tile up the bathroom" (after using it with just plaster or other material and knowing how it sounds, then I will choose if I will tile it up), then put bars on the walls and use heavy removable blankets to damp it dead. Hang a hook on the ceiling for further damping, cloud dampening. Place movable wood planks here and there, or at angles. So I initialy can use the room if the tiles arent working (totally dampening it). Or instead of tiles, I'll use other reflective material (that's why im posting here). I heard of echo chambers (in this case millisecond slap back room) made of all materials, but I'm not an expert in building them. That's why i'm posting in here.

Will plaster maybe work on the walls? Maybe a light mix of cement? a heavier one? is there another materal? idk.

I already have all the materials, and the building cost is really low, I have a friend that works in construction and will cement the floor and plaster the walls just for the cost of the materials.

Of course this is a gamble, but one that can be reversed and fixed quickly and is cost effective. But you know, I want to construct something of character.

 

[soapfoot]

At the very least, you’re likely to learn something!

If you go into it with the attitude that it’s nothing more than a highly labor-intensive experiment (which means that even total failure is a valid result), then there’s no reason to discourage you.

 

[Goblin]

At the very least, you’re likely to learn something!

If you go into it with the attitude that it’s nothing more than a highly labor-intensive experiment (which means that even total failure is a valid result), then there’s no reason to discourage you.

I will gently suggest, though, that lots of assumptions are frequently made about old records that are in error—most (even the funkiest) were made by people trying their very best using the best resources and technologies available to them.

Philosophical detour: where limitations were struggled against, the ensuing “character” was only seen as such because the music itself was really compelling.

My sense is that this only works if the art is compelling enough to magnetize the flaws into features.

Oh yeah, you're totally right. In all the points of your post.

Probably that vintage break that I've been sampling, using and choping for a month was recorded at Motown and not in the basement of a kitchen lol.

I really have no illusions.

But yes, the most important thing is that I will learn a few stuff along the way. Thanks man.

And in the end, point is, since I'm starting with cement and plaster, which I have a friend who will do the job for free, I will lose no money, besides those materials, which anyways I had to cement and plaster that room. This really it's not a scenario of throwing money at my fireplace just for a vanity project.

If I plaster the walls, and it sounds, bad, like "whoa, turn that off", chances of me placing tiles there will be almost zero.

I will try at the same time with cheap wood. If I see a hint of hope, I'll look though construction dumps or recycled places and find a "higher" quality one and try that one. And just cruise like that. If it sounds good, I'll advance with wood as well, trying higher quality ones, trying this and that. I can try a rock wall, wood deflector panels, you name it. All done cheap, with cheap or recycled free materials and done by me at my house or free by a friend. If something sticks, I'll walk down that road with higher quality materials little by little untill it is certain that it will work. This project will take time.

The idea at the end is to have multiple materials being removable/slidable/hangable. Probably at that stage I will call the professionals to come and take mic measurements and use "proper" materials.

If nothing works, I'll just dampen it. No drama.

At the same time, I'll have heavy blankets at hand that can be easily placed, so if I get tired of bad sounding takes, I'll just dampen it and get on with what I was doing. It's not like I have a lot of time to waste either trying out this room instead of working.

I play live as well, so this discilpine takes all of my time.

So really the question is, will "normal" cement and plaster will do this job, or is there a better solution for what I have thought?

Thanks a lot guys. (next time will try to explain better off the bat and place a more accurate post name to not cause confusion lol )

 

[Goblin]

Depending on how serious you want to get you can use active DSP to alter the room's sound characteristics. Sound designers already tweak large auditoriums to alternately add or suppress natural reverb.

JR

Hey John, can you point me out where can I research these active DSP's please?

I've heard of many ways of doing this (mostly a chain of diferent brands of mics, processors, and fx linked up), did you had a specific software for this task in mind?

Thanks.

 

[JohnRoberts]

This far from a how to build a chamber but a general overview of hall acoustics. link

I recall reading years ago about active electronic treatments to large symphony halls to alter effective reverb time to better serve the audience for different uses of the space. As I recall this was not cheap and was being done on multi-million dollar installs.

another link2
and another link3

JR

 

[miczone]

Before you spend any more money, why don't you just try the room out as it is now and see what you can do with it? It looks like it has all hard surfaces now. That might give you some ideas of how to treat it. If it doesn't work at all the way it is, you might decide not to waste any more money. If it sort of has some interesting uses you can experiment with baffles, more dampening and so on that will help you make decisions on how to finish it.

 

[Trouble Report]

Hey. Hope I posted in the right sub forum.

I'm building, slowly and step by step, a recording room away from my main mixing room. It's across the hallway. It's super quiet. Small. Kinda like 2 meters and a half by 2 meters and a half (can't find my measurer). It's odlly shape in a way that helps. The room will be stripped of everything, only the walls will be left. A plumber will secure the water tubes.

I have worked in small recording rooms, and know my way around them. I'll throw a snake and aux the vocals through an amp with reverb. Record vocals using the materials of the walls or dampen it. Crank up those old fender amps and get the characteristics of the amps. Maybe put my movable soldering station there.

My question is, as you can see in the pictures, the room is stripped of the wall material. I was planning in just placing cement on the floor, and plaster the walls. Quick and easy, and I'm ready to go. And use materials that I have at hand for dampening or changing the sound. Materials that I can move easily by hand. Like wooden planks and so on.

Then I'l get creative. Cover it with tiles and slidable wooden panels. Place removable dampening materials to deaden the room that will hang from a tube.

The question is, is it best practice to place cement on the floor and plaster the walls to get a quick start, or is there another way of doing this?

Is there any trick of the trade worth mentioning? (using heavier plaster mix for better sound, etc)

Any recomendations?

Room looking left near right wall:
View attachment 99533

Room looking right near left far wall (where my cat is):

View attachment 99534

I worked at Bearsville Studios for fourteen years. There was a live echo chamber in the facility, and there were practically fist-fights over who got to use it. It was an extremely non-technical, no big fuss room, about 8'W x 10'L x 9'H. It had a concrete floor and sheetrock walls and ceiling with a thick rough masonry parge - very uneven. Common wisdom on the room construction itself would no doubt be that it was a bad idea. We threw in a monitor from a pair no one would use for anything else and a stereo mic that was equally unpopular. The decay time went on forever and usually had to be damped down to be useful (a couple of bolsters would do the trick). It was always in demand. I think you have the right idea. It will sound like whatever it sounds like, and that will make it distinctive to your studio's sound. My only advice: rough parge.

 

[chilidawg]

So really the question is, will "normal" cement and plaster will do this job, or is there a better solution for what I have thought?

Not trying to attack you personally, but that's a very odd question coming from someone who claimed to have worked with plenty of small rooms before. I know US houses are mostly constructed from timber joints and dry walls, but surely you have at least in your life, been inside a basement or a warehouse with plain concrete walls?

 

[Goblin]

This far from a how to build a chamber but a general overview of hall acoustics. link

I recall reading years ago about active electronic treatments to large symphony halls to alter effective reverb time to better serve the audience for different uses of the space. As I recall this was not cheap and was being done on multi-million dollar installs.

another link2
and another link3

JR

Wow, thanks John, I'll read on up that later on.

I was thinking of using a software suit similar to the ones that come with the Rokit monitors, but for managing rooms. I think I read up or seen a video on a software that does what you mentioned before, but a lot more accessible money wise.

But since I'm not too much into that field/thought/practice/philosophy of music production most likely I lost the link, and my YT feed won't show those. You know, a suite similar to the ones that come with headphones to reproduce certain kind of rooms and abilitate the engenieer to do a "proper" mix using headphones. But for rooms. A Goole search will clear that up.

 

[Goblin]

Before you spend any more money, why don't you just try the room out as it is now and see what you can do with it? It looks like it has all hard surfaces now. That might give you some ideas of how to treat it. If it doesn't work at all the way it is, you might decide not to waste any more money. If it sort of has some interesting uses you can experiment with baffles, more dampening and so on that will help you make decisions on how to finish it.

Mainly because it's super dirty, I mean, it has residues of broken walls everywhere, of broken bricks, etc.

Stuff I left inside for weeks has a coat of dirt, and dirt in every nook.

I thought of that but really don't want to spend the weekend cleaning up guitar jack's and don't want to mess up my equipment.

 

[Goblin]

I worked at Bearsville Studios for fourteen years. There was a live echo chamber in the facility, and there were practically fist-fights over who got to use it. It was an extremely non-technical, no big fuss room, about 8'W x 10'L x 9'H. It had a concrete floor and sheetrock walls and ceiling with a thick rough masonry parge - very uneven. Common wisdom on the room construction itself would no doubt be that it was a bad idea. We threw in a monitor from a pair no one would use for anything else and a stereo mic that was equally unpopular. The decay time went on forever and usually had to be damped down to be useful (a couple of bolsters would do the trick). It was always in demand. I think you have the right idea. It will sound like whatever it sounds like, and that will make it distinctive to your studio's sound. My only advice: rough parge.

Thanks Trouble. Hey, that **really** helps, it's what I was after. I did a quick search on "rough parge" and hit the nail right in the head for what I was after. Thanks so much for sharing men.

Hey, Bearsville Studios, more than a couple of my favorite records were made there. I have a couple of DVD's of Jeff Buckley, and in one of them there is like a minifilm of him in the recording process of Grace. Actually trying out a "live" room, singing. Gives me the chills remembering it. I was checking out the wiki of Bearsville Studios and I think they missed a lot of records, trackings and mixes that were made there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Pearl Jam and/or Soundgarden as well did some stuff there, and there's lots of stuff done there not listed in the wiki page of Bearsville Studios. Buckley's stuff, best stuff ever.

Today a professional plaster came to the apartment, a handy man that does that job, and we we're talking prices and specially what to do with the water tubes, so they won't burst open when the pressure it's too high, just in case. We did found a good solution. When I will find out exactly, down to science what rough parge is, I will study it, and see if I can apply it. Today has been a long day and night. But so fun talking about this stuff.

This that you mentioned will help me lots, it's what I was after. Thanks again men. And thanks for the encouragement. The amount of mix for the plaster in the wall, stuff that can be placed inside the mix, and a rough finish? Google will clear that up for me later on tomorrow.