Car Selling Dilemma...

[thermionic]

You’re going to have to excuse me for posting another one of my moral dilemmas here - it’s just that this is about the only place I know on the web where a mob mentality doesn’t prevail (I know of no car-related forum where there's a remote air of decency - car discussions seem to attract worse flaming than rec.audio-pro).

For nearly 20 years I’ve owned a rare car. I wanted one since I was a kid and spent several times its value on it (it‘s only worth around £7,000 quid - a Bugatti it ain‘t). Since relocating, I no longer have a garage to keep it in and I can’t justify renting a garage as they’re stupid money where I live. 2 months ago I put the car on the market. I need the money for more important, personal things and it’s time to hand over the baton.

The whole experience of dealing with potential ‘buyers’ from eBay’s been vile… Some really unscrupulous scumbags…timewasters, no-showers and vultures (presuming I’ll take half the car’s value due to desperation - they text me regularly, with ever decreasing offers…). I got to the point where I thought I’d never meet a decent buyer…

Two people arranged to see the car today. The first guy’s a millionaire with several homes. He pulls up in a new Maserati. We agree £6k and shake hands. I could’ve told him I was seeing another guy later, saying ‘let‘s see what he offers‘, but didn’t want to annoy the first serious buyer I’ve had…(I’ve had nothing but low-lives for 8 weeks).  He goes to his car, but can’t find his cheque book… He says to email his secretary and the money will be with me in 2 days. I sign a piece of paper agreeing the price...it doesn't agree the 'sale', though...

I then text the second guy, telling him the car’s sold, but I’ve no deposit yet. If he wants to see the car, he can, but it’s a done deal.

So, the next guy turns up. He’s older, with grandchildren. Seems like a bit of a nerd, a petrol-head with tales to tell - my kind of guy. What was cool about this guy was that he didn’t even try to beat me down on the grounds of small imperfections…he stated that his cars were for enjoyment, and he doesn’t do concourse competitions. He offers me £7k straight up…

I didn’t take his money and said I’d keep him posted re: payment from first guy. Other than a handshake, the first guy has no legal claim to the car (I signed a document to agree value, not sale).

Usually I would’ve told the first guy I’ll get back to him, but everyone else who’s seen it’s been *such a jerk* I just wanted to do a deal… (never sell a car on ebay - it's a magnet for arseholes).

A thousand quid is a lot of money to me. Do I go back on a handshake, or lose a grand as a matter of honour? Maybe I should contact the first guy and just be honest?

Sentimentality has no place in business. However, I’d rather sell it to the second guy. I guess, simply because he I feel he’ll look after it better, as I doubt he’s a millionaire with 10 cars (the other guy has several homes and many Porsches and the like - you should see his eBay profile).

A man’s word is his bond...right? But where was the deposit?

If you’ve read this far, thanks. Be honest. Note that I’m a humble audio engineer - I don’t own property and my pension fund is my record collection and assorted bits of hardware.

Justin

 

[gemini86]

I guess this all comes down to hindsight now, so this could be a learning experience at least. I would stick with the first guy.  A deal is a deal, BUT, I definitely would have required a deposit to hold it, especially knowing the type of people you've been dealing with so far, and the fact that there's another guy coming to see it. (as a side note, leave it to a millionaire to haggle you down a grand...as if they're hurting for cash and you aren't...but who am I to judge, I don't know the guy)

I've sold a few cars in my short years, so I'm just trying to relay my perspective, based off personal experience.

Good luck with the sale!

 

[JohnRoberts]

A man's word should be bond... However that works both ways. If the first buyer, does not follow up in 2 days with the cash, advise him you have a second offer and you consider his deal as broken.

To be fair, you probably should not wait the full two days and hope he is late, but warn him with time to act that you have a new offer and consider the price negotiated void if he doesn't meet the payment terms agreed to in his uttered contract (2 days payment,,in full?). The important thing about contracts is what both parties think and can demonstrate that they agreed to. If he pays you in a timely fashion it seems to me that he purchased the car for the negotiated amount. You mention you signed a piece of paper establishing a price, but no terms of sale... Who has this paper? If you have a copy your lawyer should see that. 

The bad news is that guys who can afford Maseratis can also afford barristers, so tread carefully or maybe invest in some legal advice of your own, before precipitating a legal confrontation where you could be out gunned. There may be legislation specific to automotive sales that have some impact on how this transaction would be resolved by a civil hearing (i.e. what would the magistrate decide?). I would expect such laws to be biased to protect the buyer not the seller but who knows? not me.

The path of least resistance seems to sell to to the first buyer...  He may be more sophisticated than he appears locking in the price in writing, or just another rich guy. I could imagine complications if you try to break the deal.. I would get professional help before taking that path. Good luck.


JR

PS: Maybe he should have left the Masareti with you to drive as collateral for the deposit.  8)

 

[thermionic]

I agree on all points. However, someone has a right to change their mind, right? What if I've decided not to sell? How can the 1st guy prove that? What if I tell him the car's dropped a piston when I took it to fill it up? Can the law force you to sell?

Even if he is a millionaire, he'd be nuts to litigate. The costs would run into six figures - for a £7k car! I dare not say there aren't people who would take such a course of action, but boy, he'd have to be nuts.

My fear is simply that I'm breaking a handshake - pure and simple. The only defence I have is that he didn't / couldn't give me a deposit. I find it odd that anyone would go to view a car without a cheque for a deposit. 9/10 people who've enquired about the car have been idiots. Trust my luck to get 2 serious guys on the same day.

 

[sahib]

Justin,

I do not mean to sound smart but I learned this the hardway.

It is never a done deal until I have the money in my hand.

You have weakened your position by signing a paper to agree on a price. It is a big mistake. You had no reason to do that and  you should get a slap on hand for that.

As John said your your word is your bond. So he gets the first shot. Tell him in writing that he should materialise the sale within two days. Otherwise you'll accept the next offer.

 

[thermionic]

>You had no reason to do that and  you should get a slap on hand for that.

After putting up with sly scumbags for 2 months, I just wanted some kind of assurance I had a genuine buyer. I can't put into words my contempt for some of the slimeballs that approached me... It's as if they've read an article somewhere, telling them it's a recession and people are desperate. Filth.

I'm resigned to the fact I'll probably lose a grand. I haven't sold a car for decades. I'm usually very good at getting a good price. I can only conclude that the low-ball offers from people who were, honestly, verging on the sociopathic, wore me down somewhat. 6k is a fair price in today's market, so I took it - on the basis that, probability-wise, the second guy would be another dick. He wasn't.

 

[PRR]

> He says to email his secretary and the money will be with me in 2 days. I sign a piece of paper agreeing the price...it doesn't agree the 'sale', though...

Is the "2 days" in writing?

I'm not sure what the value is of paper agreeing price but not sale, except as token expression of interest, without "consideration" (a fine legal term). If you had taken a buck (loose change under the Maserati seats?), it would be a good if limited contract. Without consideration, it seems incomplete until some money shows.

I think that _IF_ you sell to him (fully paid) within 2 days, you are handshake committed to the 6K price. After that the handshake fades. But is the "2 days" in writing? Even so, I think most courts would respect a high-value handshake only long enough to go to the bank for the cash.

I do think that a legal-fight could escalate far beyond the grand involved.

In most of the USA, you would want written intent to buy plus a significant deposit. The buyer's contract is VERY weak without some substantial consideration (5%+). The actual sale is not valid until registered at the motor-vehicles office and a new Title is issued. Before that, the refused buyer can ask for his deposit back.

> A man’s word is his bond...right?

Land and motor-vehicles transfer through government agency. "Richie" must entice you to sign the Title over to him. He must wave some cash soon.

> What if I tell him the car's dropped a piston

Swap two spark-plug wires. A Four will hardly get down the street. A Six will be very sick, worse than a healthy Four. (An Eight will need more than two swops.) The average buyer can't find this problem. 99% of mechanics won't suspect this trick, and will be $1K into the bottom end before coming out and incidentally restoring the spark-wires (maybe).

> his cheque book… He says to email his secretary and the money will be with me in 2 days.

I would be wary of a personal or small-business check. Maybe all his homes are over-mortgaged and he is bouncing checks to maintain his lifestye and business profile, hoping the economy will improve.

There may be additional issues from the eBay listing. eBay can't actually sell cars, but may have fraud-reduction policies. You might survive being defrocked from eBay Motors, but do you have other eBay activity?

 

[JohnRoberts]

You haven't lost a grand, and you haven't made a sale yet to either prospect.

If you plan to play games with Richy Rich,  I will offer this additional suggestion. Don't depend on free legal advice from pukes on the internet, and don't blog about anything underhanded that you might do for the world to read. 

You know what the right answer is without asking us.

Good Luck, I hope you sell your car to at least one of them, for at least 6K.

  JR

 

[living sounds]

I would be wary of a personal or small-business check. Maybe all his homes are over-mortgaged and he is bouncing checks to maintain his lifestye and business profile, hoping the economy will improve.

Might even be a con-artist, it's hard to know for sure without thorough investigations. I agree, at significant amounts of money like this I wouldn't accept any kind of payment that could bounce back from someone I don't know and trust for good reasons.

As to the original question, a deal is a deal, but it might be possible to talk the first guy out of it. Can't say anything on the legalities though, common law remains a mystery to me.

 

[okgb]

Is it a bird in the hand or not
you could test the waters with some contact with the first guy ,
like i haven't heard from you so i've moved on , see how he reacts
Hopefully if it works out and the second guy has not changed his mind

good luck , feel for you brother

 

[sahib]

As I said until I had the money in my hand. Not the cheque.

And, you particularly don't sell cars paid by cheque. Cash and only the cash.

 

[thermionic]

The cheque was offered as a deposit, which I said I'd return on receipt of cash. Having said that, I've emailed him and said I'd prefer cash, full stop. The second guy's called and said he still wants the car for £7k... I've had so many time wasters and arseholes I was just glad to get a serious buyer, therefore my judgement deserted me... I was going on the basis the 2nd guyer would be a joker... Anyway, if I don't have the cash soon, the 2nd guy gets it.

Justin

 

[johnmellor]

Have you tried selling through a specialist forum for the car? The bigger ones have dodgers as well unfortunately. (vw) It's not a lotus talbot sunbeam by any chance?  ;D

 

[thermionic]

The specialist forum was my first port of call. Alas, they all own cars there. A couple of them who already own 2 or 3 said they were tempted, but would probably get filed with divorce papers if they dragged another car home. I think it's just the way it's panned out. I should've had more faith from the beginning. It's a nice car, with great bodywork. I suspect that the more unscrupulous scumbags tend to get in there early, which leaves such a bad taste in the mouth it makes one paranoid that the following buyers will behave in a similar fashion.

J

 

[APEX JR.]

Here's what I would do....
Call the 1st guy and tell him since I see this post started 2 days ago, Give him 1st right of refusal and tell him
you are giving him a time frame and if he doesn't complete the deal by your time frame the deal is off.
Make sure you have proof of the time frame.
And then go to #2... As said above your word should be GOLD.

Steve

 

[thermionic]

Just had a call from mr rich, asking why I hadn't emailed his secretary. I said, truthfully, that I'd sent him an email, requesting he pay full in cash, not bank transfer. He said 'ok' and claims he'll get back to me. He's obviously serious. However, his tone was pretty aggressive...I didn't like it at all...as if I'd 'disobeyed' him by not emailing his secretary. He said he hadn't checked his email because he's been jetting between his homes.

I'd rather not sell to this guy. I don't like being spoken to as if I'm some kind of pond life. When he came over, he was very rude about his employees (I suggested he send one of them to pick up the car); 'they don't know how to look after things', 'they're not very clever'...

Considering he's not given me any cash, I don't think I'm obligated to sell to him. I'm sure I can back out. People aren't as litigation-mad in the UK as they are in the US, so I can't see an issue. I'm going to call the other guy and tell him if he's paid up by Friday he can have it. When mr rich calls, I'm just going to be straight, and say I didn't like the cut of his jib. F*ck him. You don't get rich by being nice, do you? 9/10 wealthy people I know are ruthless and soulless.

Justin

 

[s2udio]

Quote.....I'd rather not sell to this guy.
Then don,t ...as long as that sig you made only agrees a price and with no promise to sell .
Even then its not a deposit or payment for reserving his right to buy the car.
You still own the car and the paperwork don't you...!
Tell him you have had a better offer...see what he says ?
His attitude by the sound of it stinks.......Rich,ruthless and thinks people jump to his tune.
Anyway if no money has changed hands there is no contract,you are totally correct if you dont
sell it to him....you are the seller and until cash changes hand he,s the buyer and you have every right to refuse !
Dont take any sh"! .......Its your car !
Thats the way i see it ...and sold a few in my time ,UK side anyway.
Again CASH only !

 

[zebra50]

Hi Justin,

Sounds very much like Mr 'Rich' is dicking you about.  It has been at least 48 hours. If he's rich, why hasn't he paid?  It is really not difficult to get cash, or a bankers draft, or transfer some money, so long as you have it.

I would just tell his secretary that someone else came round with the cash (and he didn't.)

You can't spend promises.

Stewart

 

[PRR]

> If he's rich, why hasn't he paid?

The really-rich don't pay. They have employees to handle the money.

Thing is, he seems to be treating Justin as one of his employees. Why should Justin find and contact this secretary? (What if there's several secretaries?) Rich should memo his secretary to work it out with Justin.

> if no money has changed hands there is no contract

A short-term contract may be implied verbally without money (or other consideration). A "handshake deal". It can be upheld by court. However with no paper and no consideration, a court would uphold only a minimal interpretation. Basically: until the bank opens. Unless there's been a run on the banks (or local rioting?), I'd say his contractual rights have faded. If Justin still wanted the deal, and Rich has cash, it's on. But it's time to see how fast P.Head can get there with more cash.

 

[ruckus328]

So what happened?  It's been well over two days now.