I found this cool thread while searching for Triad info.
It is from Mike at Magnaquest:
::::The problem i faced is that i am not able to wind them layer by layer evenly especially at the end of each layer. The winding just don't seem to stack properly on top of one another at the ends. Does you provide an insulation in-between every layer (like Lundai Transformer)therefore able to stack them evenly.::::
We do both layer winding as well as bobbin winding. Each is a different "art".... or, alternately, layer winding (traditional hand winding) is moreso art while bobbin winding is moreso technique.
Sounds like your trying to do layer winding but not using layer insulation btwn each layer of the coil. This will and does lead to frustration and less than stellar results.
If your layer winding you must have a sufficient mechanical platform btwn each layer even within one winding section. You want this platform to be strong enough (sturdy enough) to support the tension of the wire being wound on top of it and that it remain flat and taut.
one of the big tricks to layer winding is keeping the margins identical. I.E., having good margin conrol. Say you have a 3/16" margin on each end of the winding. You want and need to maintain this all the way through the coil. Both for electrical reasons as well as issues of craftsmanship.
Early on a trick I used was to have a 3/16" wide piece of electrical tape (very thin) and then put a piece on each corner of the insulation... this gave a very good visual of where to start and where to finish the winding.
When layer winding... putting the first few turns on each new layer is the most critical. They must go on straight and be "symmetrical", i.e., not have a "bias" in them. Once you get the first few turns on then you can pick up the speed of the winding and the wire (with proper technique) will almost feed itself onto the coil perfectly like it's magic. and you get the feeling of having done something magical and well.
Learning how to hand wind properly requires the right equipment/tools and practice and the proper technique.
You must have good pro equipment that will pick up the speed gradually and consistently. If it is "jerky" you'll never get a good layer wind. You must guide the wire by hand... placement of your hand and how you pinch or tension the wire as it goes on is critical.
You actually feed (after the first say three turns) the wire from "behind"... meaning that your hand "trails" the wire going on the coil. Using this technique of "trailing" the wire will actually feed itself on quite, quite easily and consistently.
Your hand must be very far away from the coil. Biggest mistake any new winder makes it to have their hand to close to the coil. then any motion of your hand is "amplified" into a large movement of space on the coil. The further you get your hand away from the coil the more control you will have. This is because from far away the "angle" is very oblique and any movement of your hand results in only a small movement on the coil.
I put my right hand on my right knee... with the side on my hand facing vertcally up. And then very gently roll my hand to the left or right (depending on whether I am winding from left to right or right to left). This is how you begin to get a sense of control or mastery of the winding process.
Again.... when layer winding you must use layer insulation or you will never be able to control your margin distance and your end turns will have a great tendency to want to fall off. If it falls off...it's disaster. Start over that layer....
:::If that is the case, isn't the coupling efficiently will drop greatly since huge amount of the winding window is used up by the insulation.:::
Let's not mixup design issues/considerations with "how to build" a coil issues/discussions. However, briefly, all other things being equal a layer wound coil will have greater leakage than a bobbin wound coil but also (again, all other things being equal) it will have considerably less capacitance, greater consistency of voltage gradients, and will enjoy (with smart design) some mechanical damping benefits that a bobbin wound coil will not enjoy so much. So it's a design issue that is addressed in the design phase of the product.
::::Also, the primary winding wire is so thin and to achieve proper layering seem impossible. Can you give me some tips what to look out for when starting every new layers, like how to prevent the winding at the edge from falling off? Thanks ::::
Please read the above for some pointers. As a new winder... your looking to gain experience and small successes to build (or should I say to wind on!!!)... you should first practice and gain proficency on the "middle size" conductors... do not try to wind to thin a wire at first. Best sizes to learn on are up to about 30 gauge wire.
Just a few more notes.
Bobbin winding is different. this is moreso akin to technique or the ability to work with and set up machine tools. The tensioning of the wire is done mechanically (not by your innate sense of feel)... the number of turns is programmed into the machine, it will automatically traverse from left to right and go from layer to layer. Assuming you have the setup of the machine done properly... the "ends" or "cheeks" of the bobbin prevents the wire from falling off the edge of the coil and prevents them from binding up at the end of the traverse.
Bobbin winding.... you can also do this by hand. And again the sill level is not nearly as refined (i.e., skill demanding) as building a good quality layer wound coil. But most bobbin wound coils are done on machines that automatically feed, guide, and tension the wire while automatically traversing from left to right to wind successive layers of wire. Generally (but not always) bobbin wound coils do not use layer isulation within a particular winding section but only in btwn different windings (i.e., btwn primary and secondary sections).
Hand winding if from the old world. It is dependent on a craft touch, feel and sensitivity of the winder. It's quality is related to the skill of the winder. Economically, it is much more expensive because it is time consuming. For instance to wind a coil for a Peerless 20-20 Plus Series coil by hand take approx four hours to just wind the coil.
You can also automate layer winding with a specialized layer winding machine. coils like the Dynaco A-470 were all wound on Universal 108 coil winding machines. These machines use "sticks" with a winding tube placed over the stick and then you start winding on top. You keep and maintain margins like your hand winding. You use layer insulation like your hand winding. The big differences are that the machines tensions and disperses the wire off of spools and across guide rollers which are precision set for location and then the machine automatically traverses from left to right across the winding. The layer insulation is (depending on machine used) either inserted manually or by a "paper feed".
The advantage of an automatic layer winder is that now you can build say a dozen coils at one time on a 24" stick. After the coils are all wound complete you slide the coils off of the former stick and then cut them apart on a band saw being utterly careful to make the cuts precisely in the middle or in btwn any two adjoining coils. Then you must pull all of the starts and stops of the windings out of the coil using tweezers being careful not to break them or nick them and being careful to place them in the saddle in the right spot so that they don't get mixed up with one another.
And I could go on.... but hopefully I have answered a few of your questions and given you some insight into the wonderful world of transformer winding.
Mike LaFevre
copyright 2002
addtl. note. anyone is free to reproduce this material or use it on a website as long as credit is given to the author and to MagneQuest.
Out of politeness please contact me via email if you want to post it somewhere. thanks.
It is from Mike at Magnaquest:
::::The problem i faced is that i am not able to wind them layer by layer evenly especially at the end of each layer. The winding just don't seem to stack properly on top of one another at the ends. Does you provide an insulation in-between every layer (like Lundai Transformer)therefore able to stack them evenly.::::
We do both layer winding as well as bobbin winding. Each is a different "art".... or, alternately, layer winding (traditional hand winding) is moreso art while bobbin winding is moreso technique.
Sounds like your trying to do layer winding but not using layer insulation btwn each layer of the coil. This will and does lead to frustration and less than stellar results.
If your layer winding you must have a sufficient mechanical platform btwn each layer even within one winding section. You want this platform to be strong enough (sturdy enough) to support the tension of the wire being wound on top of it and that it remain flat and taut.
one of the big tricks to layer winding is keeping the margins identical. I.E., having good margin conrol. Say you have a 3/16" margin on each end of the winding. You want and need to maintain this all the way through the coil. Both for electrical reasons as well as issues of craftsmanship.
Early on a trick I used was to have a 3/16" wide piece of electrical tape (very thin) and then put a piece on each corner of the insulation... this gave a very good visual of where to start and where to finish the winding.
When layer winding... putting the first few turns on each new layer is the most critical. They must go on straight and be "symmetrical", i.e., not have a "bias" in them. Once you get the first few turns on then you can pick up the speed of the winding and the wire (with proper technique) will almost feed itself onto the coil perfectly like it's magic. and you get the feeling of having done something magical and well.
Learning how to hand wind properly requires the right equipment/tools and practice and the proper technique.
You must have good pro equipment that will pick up the speed gradually and consistently. If it is "jerky" you'll never get a good layer wind. You must guide the wire by hand... placement of your hand and how you pinch or tension the wire as it goes on is critical.
You actually feed (after the first say three turns) the wire from "behind"... meaning that your hand "trails" the wire going on the coil. Using this technique of "trailing" the wire will actually feed itself on quite, quite easily and consistently.
Your hand must be very far away from the coil. Biggest mistake any new winder makes it to have their hand to close to the coil. then any motion of your hand is "amplified" into a large movement of space on the coil. The further you get your hand away from the coil the more control you will have. This is because from far away the "angle" is very oblique and any movement of your hand results in only a small movement on the coil.
I put my right hand on my right knee... with the side on my hand facing vertcally up. And then very gently roll my hand to the left or right (depending on whether I am winding from left to right or right to left). This is how you begin to get a sense of control or mastery of the winding process.
Again.... when layer winding you must use layer insulation or you will never be able to control your margin distance and your end turns will have a great tendency to want to fall off. If it falls off...it's disaster. Start over that layer....
:::If that is the case, isn't the coupling efficiently will drop greatly since huge amount of the winding window is used up by the insulation.:::
Let's not mixup design issues/considerations with "how to build" a coil issues/discussions. However, briefly, all other things being equal a layer wound coil will have greater leakage than a bobbin wound coil but also (again, all other things being equal) it will have considerably less capacitance, greater consistency of voltage gradients, and will enjoy (with smart design) some mechanical damping benefits that a bobbin wound coil will not enjoy so much. So it's a design issue that is addressed in the design phase of the product.
::::Also, the primary winding wire is so thin and to achieve proper layering seem impossible. Can you give me some tips what to look out for when starting every new layers, like how to prevent the winding at the edge from falling off? Thanks ::::
Please read the above for some pointers. As a new winder... your looking to gain experience and small successes to build (or should I say to wind on!!!)... you should first practice and gain proficency on the "middle size" conductors... do not try to wind to thin a wire at first. Best sizes to learn on are up to about 30 gauge wire.
Just a few more notes.
Bobbin winding is different. this is moreso akin to technique or the ability to work with and set up machine tools. The tensioning of the wire is done mechanically (not by your innate sense of feel)... the number of turns is programmed into the machine, it will automatically traverse from left to right and go from layer to layer. Assuming you have the setup of the machine done properly... the "ends" or "cheeks" of the bobbin prevents the wire from falling off the edge of the coil and prevents them from binding up at the end of the traverse.
Bobbin winding.... you can also do this by hand. And again the sill level is not nearly as refined (i.e., skill demanding) as building a good quality layer wound coil. But most bobbin wound coils are done on machines that automatically feed, guide, and tension the wire while automatically traversing from left to right to wind successive layers of wire. Generally (but not always) bobbin wound coils do not use layer isulation within a particular winding section but only in btwn different windings (i.e., btwn primary and secondary sections).
Hand winding if from the old world. It is dependent on a craft touch, feel and sensitivity of the winder. It's quality is related to the skill of the winder. Economically, it is much more expensive because it is time consuming. For instance to wind a coil for a Peerless 20-20 Plus Series coil by hand take approx four hours to just wind the coil.
You can also automate layer winding with a specialized layer winding machine. coils like the Dynaco A-470 were all wound on Universal 108 coil winding machines. These machines use "sticks" with a winding tube placed over the stick and then you start winding on top. You keep and maintain margins like your hand winding. You use layer insulation like your hand winding. The big differences are that the machines tensions and disperses the wire off of spools and across guide rollers which are precision set for location and then the machine automatically traverses from left to right across the winding. The layer insulation is (depending on machine used) either inserted manually or by a "paper feed".
The advantage of an automatic layer winder is that now you can build say a dozen coils at one time on a 24" stick. After the coils are all wound complete you slide the coils off of the former stick and then cut them apart on a band saw being utterly careful to make the cuts precisely in the middle or in btwn any two adjoining coils. Then you must pull all of the starts and stops of the windings out of the coil using tweezers being careful not to break them or nick them and being careful to place them in the saddle in the right spot so that they don't get mixed up with one another.
And I could go on.... but hopefully I have answered a few of your questions and given you some insight into the wonderful world of transformer winding.
Mike LaFevre
copyright 2002
addtl. note. anyone is free to reproduce this material or use it on a website as long as credit is given to the author and to MagneQuest.
Out of politeness please contact me via email if you want to post it somewhere. thanks.
aper is still the best sounding insulation material, so I don't think the move to plastic types improved matters,::::
