kevinkace
Well-known member
Any update on this project?
"Colour" 500-series Harmonics Generator
- Thread starter Meathands
- Start date
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Meathands
Well-known member
Thanks for asking. The project has seen some set backs but is very much alive. Link, my design partner, has, understandably, had to move onto other things, but I'm still trucking.
Right now I'm in the final stages of making the motherboard layout really bullet proof. Eisen Audio provided a consultation on optimizing the layout as well as some of the non-obvious intricacies of designing for the 500-series format. I'm currently working those suggestions into a hopefully-final layout.
The Colours Link developed--"tape," "JFET," and "rectifier"--are complete, tested and ready to go. I'm waiting on some custom transformers from Cinemag for a vintage, transformer saturation Colour.
At this point I would be hugely interested in hearing from anyone else interested in developing a Colour. I am happy to share any of my design information as well as prototyping boards to make your designs possible.
Right now I'm in the final stages of making the motherboard layout really bullet proof. Eisen Audio provided a consultation on optimizing the layout as well as some of the non-obvious intricacies of designing for the 500-series format. I'm currently working those suggestions into a hopefully-final layout.
The Colours Link developed--"tape," "JFET," and "rectifier"--are complete, tested and ready to go. I'm waiting on some custom transformers from Cinemag for a vintage, transformer saturation Colour.
At this point I would be hugely interested in hearing from anyone else interested in developing a Colour. I am happy to share any of my design information as well as prototyping boards to make your designs possible.
kevinkace
Well-known member
Remind us of the daughter board IO?
With summer here, this is the only DIY project that still has my attention.
With summer here, this is the only DIY project that still has my attention.
Meathands
Well-known member
The daughter boards ("colours") have +/-16v, in, out, and ground connections. In the current revision, there are no hardware connectors; the colours' I/O pads simply mate to pads on the motherboard. The image attached to this post is of the current colour footprint on the PCB. The black lines indicate where the motherboard PCB is routed out to make room for the solder side of the colour pcb. I'm trying this approach to buy more vertical clearance for the colour modules to fit stuff like transformers and big caps.
The colours will be driven by a single-ended, line-level, low-impedance signal. There is a gain switch to alternate between unity and 6dB before the colours. Each colour circuit needs to be able to drive a 10k load (the output attenuator).
The colours will be driven by a single-ended, line-level, low-impedance signal. There is a gain switch to alternate between unity and 6dB before the colours. Each colour circuit needs to be able to drive a 10k load (the output attenuator).
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Meathands
Well-known member
Here's the latest: just received and built another prototype (see attached pic). She's working and sounds great, especially the Cinemag transformer saturation which sounds like warm, golden butter when you give it +6dBu. But I'm not inspired by the interface.
As a reminder, we're currently doing it like this: dry signal comes in and is split to the 3 Colours which process the signal in parallel and are summed together before the output trim. The controls are:
-Dry Signal Volume
-Colour 1 Volume
-Colour 2 Volume
-Colour 3 Volume
-Output Trim
-Master Bypass
There are a few reasons I'm not digging this. First is that, the parallel approach works well for effects like the octaver/rectifier where the effect can be made very "wet" and mixed in to taste or effects that involve filtering. But for something like the transformer saturation, where the "effect" of the transformer is below 5% THD, mixing the effect in with the dry signal just adds a ton more signal with a tiny bit of color. Second, there is no way to control how hard the Colours are driven--this is set completely by how loud the signal is coming into the unit. Third, the controls don't feel like using a tape machine, preamp, etc for color. It feels like mixing together a bunch of aux returns, which we usually associate with reverb, delay, etc. Finally, I'm coming more to feel that the Colours should be in series so that they can interact. I found myself wondering what it would sound like to hit the FET stage first and then smooth it out with the transformer, etc.
So, since I find myself once again back at the drawing board (but with a bit clearer vision), I'd really appreciate your thoughts/opinions on how to structure the interface.
Option 1 (Distressor-ish) - Colours in series
-Input Drive
-Colour 1 In/Out Switch
-Colour 2 In/Out Switch
-Colour 3 In/Out Switch
-Output Trim
Like the Distressor's "Dist 1" and "Dist 2" settings, Colours would be switched in an out via pushbutton with LED indicator.
Option 2
-Colour 1 Drive
-Colour 2 Drive
-Colour 3 Drive
-Output Trim
-Master Bypass
This would be more like having 3 pieces of gear in series, as you would if you were going preamp -> compressor -> tape, for example. Each Colour could be driven taste, but you couldn't drive a Colour hard and mix just a little bit in.
Option 3
-Colour 1 Drive
-Colour 1 Trim
-Colour 2 Drive
-Colour 2 Trim
-Colour 3 Drive
-Colour 3 Trim
-Master Bypass
This option clearly provides the most flexibility and control of each Colour. I'm skeptical that this much control is really needed or beneficial in this unit, but it's an option. 6 knobs + switch is pushing it for a 500-series module, but it's certainly been done.
Those are my leading options, but other ideas are welcome!
As a reminder, we're currently doing it like this: dry signal comes in and is split to the 3 Colours which process the signal in parallel and are summed together before the output trim. The controls are:
-Dry Signal Volume
-Colour 1 Volume
-Colour 2 Volume
-Colour 3 Volume
-Output Trim
-Master Bypass
There are a few reasons I'm not digging this. First is that, the parallel approach works well for effects like the octaver/rectifier where the effect can be made very "wet" and mixed in to taste or effects that involve filtering. But for something like the transformer saturation, where the "effect" of the transformer is below 5% THD, mixing the effect in with the dry signal just adds a ton more signal with a tiny bit of color. Second, there is no way to control how hard the Colours are driven--this is set completely by how loud the signal is coming into the unit. Third, the controls don't feel like using a tape machine, preamp, etc for color. It feels like mixing together a bunch of aux returns, which we usually associate with reverb, delay, etc. Finally, I'm coming more to feel that the Colours should be in series so that they can interact. I found myself wondering what it would sound like to hit the FET stage first and then smooth it out with the transformer, etc.
So, since I find myself once again back at the drawing board (but with a bit clearer vision), I'd really appreciate your thoughts/opinions on how to structure the interface.
Option 1 (Distressor-ish) - Colours in series
-Input Drive
-Colour 1 In/Out Switch
-Colour 2 In/Out Switch
-Colour 3 In/Out Switch
-Output Trim
Like the Distressor's "Dist 1" and "Dist 2" settings, Colours would be switched in an out via pushbutton with LED indicator.
Option 2
-Colour 1 Drive
-Colour 2 Drive
-Colour 3 Drive
-Output Trim
-Master Bypass
This would be more like having 3 pieces of gear in series, as you would if you were going preamp -> compressor -> tape, for example. Each Colour could be driven taste, but you couldn't drive a Colour hard and mix just a little bit in.
Option 3
-Colour 1 Drive
-Colour 1 Trim
-Colour 2 Drive
-Colour 2 Trim
-Colour 3 Drive
-Colour 3 Trim
-Master Bypass
This option clearly provides the most flexibility and control of each Colour. I'm skeptical that this much control is really needed or beneficial in this unit, but it's an option. 6 knobs + switch is pushing it for a 500-series module, but it's certainly been done.
Those are my leading options, but other ideas are welcome!
Attachments
JoshuaUnitt
Active member
The control freak in me likes Option 3. Could it be implemented with 3 dual-stacked pots? Seems like it'd be an easy space-saver (if that was already in your mind I apologize, wasn't quite sure from the post).
I agree that dual-stacked pots are a decent solution if you go with option 3.
That said, I'm not sure if I'd need that level of control from option 3. What I like from my favourite bits of gear is how little I have to do to get the results I want. If this unit sounds good then I'd like to quickly be able to do some tone-shaping without having to turn so many knobs. That's the beauty of a nice 1176 for example, it's core sound is good, so you have to do very little to get what you want.
For that reason I'd prefer option 2, but maybe with bypass switches for each colour, so I could drive colour 1 hard into colour 3 for example, and bypass colour 2 completely.
Just my 2 cents!
That said, I'm not sure if I'd need that level of control from option 3. What I like from my favourite bits of gear is how little I have to do to get the results I want. If this unit sounds good then I'd like to quickly be able to do some tone-shaping without having to turn so many knobs. That's the beauty of a nice 1176 for example, it's core sound is good, so you have to do very little to get what you want.
For that reason I'd prefer option 2, but maybe with bypass switches for each colour, so I could drive colour 1 hard into colour 3 for example, and bypass colour 2 completely.
Just my 2 cents!
Meathands
Well-known member
Sounds like Geir and Chris and advocating for the same thing: bypass + drive for each Colour and master output trim. (Basically option 2 + individual bypass).
One thing I'll have to work out is how much current consumption will be added by having an input drive opamp and bypass relays for each Colour. Max consumption for a 500-series module I believe is 150mA and we want to have some left over for the Colours themselves!
One thing I'll have to work out is how much current consumption will be added by having an input drive opamp and bypass relays for each Colour. Max consumption for a 500-series module I believe is 150mA and we want to have some left over for the Colours themselves!
Looking good. Could you maybe put the xformer Colour first, with stage1 bypass, so the subtle colour is controllable, before multing out to the two others and summing all three at the end? That way you could have your parallel distortion cake and eat it!
ArnauTS
Well-known member
I agree. Option 2 with individual bypass and master bypass would be nice.
Meathands
Well-known member
Here's a rough layout for "Option 1" using input drive, bypass switches, and output drive.
But, notice something else! The Colour footprints now include mounting holes for 2503-size transformers. So you can mount up a Colour module or various transformers from Ed Anderson, Cinemag, Sowter, Jensen, etc. in any of those slots.
I listened to your feedback about wanting individual drive controls or each Colour, but it turns out to be unpractical from a current consumption standpoint. 3 extra opamps driving up to +24dBu into possibly 600R loads doesn't leave much current left over for the Colours themselves.
With that limitation in mind, I decided to try bypass switches. The switch approach also appeals to me from a workflow perspective. There's some gear, like a Distressor, that you want to spend time tweaking, listening, and tweaking more. There's other gear you just want to patch in and smile. I think the Colour should go in the latter direction. It is, after all, just a glorified distortion box, not a true studio "tool" like an EQ or dynamics processor.
But, notice something else! The Colour footprints now include mounting holes for 2503-size transformers. So you can mount up a Colour module or various transformers from Ed Anderson, Cinemag, Sowter, Jensen, etc. in any of those slots.
I listened to your feedback about wanting individual drive controls or each Colour, but it turns out to be unpractical from a current consumption standpoint. 3 extra opamps driving up to +24dBu into possibly 600R loads doesn't leave much current left over for the Colours themselves.
With that limitation in mind, I decided to try bypass switches. The switch approach also appeals to me from a workflow perspective. There's some gear, like a Distressor, that you want to spend time tweaking, listening, and tweaking more. There's other gear you just want to patch in and smile. I think the Colour should go in the latter direction. It is, after all, just a glorified distortion box, not a true studio "tool" like an EQ or dynamics processor.
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L´Andratté
Well-known member
Hi!
First, I have been following this project for some time and with interest!
Since I am not into 500 Modules, I think I won´t build it in this incarnation, but
noticing the (size-)limitations of that format, I think these limitations are often a very positive part of a creative process!
From my experience building distortion pedals, most just need a drive control and output level because it can
be hard without- e.g. if the colours are always different in amplitude when switched i/o.
That said, I would not see the need to make 3 controls the same, unless you also arrange your pencils in right angles (I prefer mikado sytle : ).
Why not make the third one ´different´?
This could be strategically nice for upcoming modules. It could be a pot for a (bipolar?) control voltage, that COULD be the drive(via VCA) but also everything else.
Then every channel could have a cv conrol, hmm...
Whatever you do, it will be a very nice piece of work, I think!
First, I have been following this project for some time and with interest!
Since I am not into 500 Modules, I think I won´t build it in this incarnation, but
noticing the (size-)limitations of that format, I think these limitations are often a very positive part of a creative process!
From my experience building distortion pedals, most just need a drive control and output level because it can
be hard without- e.g. if the colours are always different in amplitude when switched i/o.
That said, I would not see the need to make 3 controls the same, unless you also arrange your pencils in right angles (I prefer mikado sytle :
).Why not make the third one ´different´?
This could be strategically nice for upcoming modules. It could be a pot for a (bipolar?) control voltage, that COULD be the drive(via VCA) but also everything else.
Then every channel could have a cv conrol, hmm...
Whatever you do, it will be a very nice piece of work, I think!
okgb
Well-known member
Millennia media product are transformerless except the STT that uses an,
according to them " higher leakage " transformer for color , so the xfmr angle
is a good one , how much can you saturate them before you just get ringing ?
The parallel approach can be good if colors have different frequency content , somewhat like a crossover
or more highs and less low colors , more mids whatever .
if a drive is zero , will that take it out of the equation ? no bypass ?
Just like gtr getting a light BUT consistent overdrive can be tough , but looking forward to
the final outcome , nice to see an update
according to them " higher leakage " transformer for color , so the xfmr angle
is a good one , how much can you saturate them before you just get ringing ?
The parallel approach can be good if colors have different frequency content , somewhat like a crossover
or more highs and less low colors , more mids whatever .
if a drive is zero , will that take it out of the equation ? no bypass ?
Just like gtr getting a light BUT consistent overdrive can be tough , but looking forward to
the final outcome , nice to see an update
Meathands
Well-known member
We are close. Very close. Since the early days of this project, we've had an ambitious price point we wanted to hit. We did a lot in the design stage to trim the BOM, keep prototyping cheap, etc., but we realized the only way we're going to have a prayer of hitting this price point is by conducting a relatively large pre-order. We'll be doing this via Kickstarter. In fact, the Kickstarter campaign has been submitted and is only awaiting approval (fingers crossed).
The price point we're trying to hit is $119 for the 500-series Palette kit and $249 for the full Colour with Palette + 3 colours. For the Kickstarter we're going to try something even lower to see if it's sustainable:
$95 for Palette kit (500-series motherboard PCB, components, front & side panels)
$175 for full Colour kit (Palette + 3 colours)
The front panel pictured above is a prototype made from acrylic. The real deal will be made from anodized aluminum or double-thick PCB (again, depending on pre-order quantity).
I'm also really excited to have heard from quite a few folks who are interested in designing colours of their own, including some pals from the forum:
Eisen Audio
Louder Than Liftoff
TB Audio (horvitz)
AC Sound (Abechap)
Big Bear Audio
Nathan Bowers of THD Industries
Dane Tate of XQP Audio
Bearcat Audio
I've put together a Colour Designer's Toolkit (http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/colour-module-design-guide/) with specs, dimensions, etc. to get you started. Let me know if you want to be added to the list!
The price point we're trying to hit is $119 for the 500-series Palette kit and $249 for the full Colour with Palette + 3 colours. For the Kickstarter we're going to try something even lower to see if it's sustainable:
$95 for Palette kit (500-series motherboard PCB, components, front & side panels)
$175 for full Colour kit (Palette + 3 colours)
The front panel pictured above is a prototype made from acrylic. The real deal will be made from anodized aluminum or double-thick PCB (again, depending on pre-order quantity).
I'm also really excited to have heard from quite a few folks who are interested in designing colours of their own, including some pals from the forum:
Eisen Audio
Louder Than Liftoff
TB Audio (horvitz)
AC Sound (Abechap)
Big Bear Audio
Nathan Bowers of THD Industries
Dane Tate of XQP Audio
Bearcat Audio
I've put together a Colour Designer's Toolkit (http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/colour-module-design-guide/) with specs, dimensions, etc. to get you started. Let me know if you want to be added to the list!
abechap024
Well-known member
Looks great! I want to do the PCM42 input stage (the ones that x and x famous engineers like to use to crunch and distort things) and also eventually an 8 bit a/d and d/a convertor with low headroom to add some grit to things...a fun project with lots of really great options.
abechap024 said:
I'm totally in for a couple of these! Such a great idea!
Abe - you totally read my mind! The PCM42 limiter was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this too! Not sure about sourcing the CLM50 though - I guess equivs can be had/made!
Meathands
Well-known member
Well folks, the time has come. The pre-order is now live until 2.1: http://www.diyrecordingequipment.com/colour-modular-analog-saturator-pre-order/
Thank you for all of your support and interest so far!
Thank you for all of your support and interest so far!
