Cost effective European bare PCB manufacture

[abbey road d enfer]

No sweatshops?

Unless it's a staged set-up, the pictures of their factories don't look like it.

 

[john12ax7]

Whole bunch of reasons, labor rates are way different,  less regulations to comply with,  currency exchange rates,  government subsidies.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Whole bunch of reasons, labor rates are way different,  less regulations to comply with,  currency exchange rates,  government subsidies.

That's the usual answers, but actually they don't hold so much.
In the 1980's, a wise man (forgot who) said; "Americans charge each other so much they think they are rich".
It's true of most of the western world now. We don't want to get our hands dirty anymore. We want a fast buck. Nobody wants to invest in machinery, plants, industry. ROI is not fast enough.

 

[user 37518]

That's the usual answers, but actually they don't hold so much.
In the 1980's, a wise man (forgot who) said; "Americans charge each other so much they think they are rich".
It's true of most of the western world now. We don't want to get our hands dirty anymore. We want a fast buck. Nobody wants to invest in machinery, plants, industry. ROI is not fast enough.

You are exactly right!, developed countires don't want to get their hands dirty like you say,  they want a higher standard of living, the economy is much better, living conditions are better. Developing economies, they don't care about that very much, also goverments in those countries promote skilled labor over R&D which makes a huge difference.

 

[r2d2]

…….It may be all but impossible to boycott Chinese electronic components for all needs.

I am not sure what we as individuals can do that will be felt by China other than encourage our leaders to push back. I recall late last century when consumer sentiment was overwhelmingly anti-China, but if the price was low enough self-interest squashed all moral outrage. ……..

…  probably the Indira Gandhi  "philosophy" is the only one way ?  :

…. "let the "product"  on the shelf" ….

as  people do if it is bad quality , or too expensive for what it is …..

but the very "puzzling" thing is why the people do not use the incredible "weapon" it have in hands
a.k.a. internet ,
for join massively to change  the bad " things" …..

peace

ps:
seem "they" eat dogs because they believe it enhances virility..
…. give them the Viagra ….

workers salary is about 50-60 bucks month ?
…. tell him what (serious) work unions are…… and do...

another internal chinese revolution is unavoidable…
…it is just time matter …
(… probably is what "someone"  (...and some other "snack companion"...)  hope ?…)

 

[gyraf]

Yeah, there are probably many complex reasons for this type of workmanship moving eastwards.

I panicked myself, when I lost my local PCB plant - did seriously not trust anyone else to deliver the quality and support I need for my commercial operation. Tried a couple of the cheap and less cheap online providers Europe and eastern, with varying but mostly catastrophic results.

A colleague recommended jetek-pcb, a small-ish operation in Shenzhen city. Sent them some artwork to be printed, and in an hour got a confirmation mail back, pointing to a number of possible problems in my layout, asking if I wanted to revise before continuing. Now THIS is the type of support you really wish for when using 1992-vintage PCB layout programs like I do - but it also shows a general attitude towards QC that is reassuring. Their prices are not the lowest around, but not higher than perhaps +/-50% from the rock-bottom-lowest. I think they compete on quality aspects rather than price - but still very, very far from what I used to pay locally  , even considering a good half of their price is the shipping. Their usual turn-around-time, when no hurries is specified, is around one week from I send the files until I have the PCB's in my hand (Denmark). If you try them, you will want to communicate with their guy Ivan Mao - fluent English, deep technical knowledge.

/Jakob E.
(and sorry about posting tangentially to the OP question)

 

[Rochey]

I recently submitted a new design to JLC and got a personal email back from someone that reviewed the design and spotted an error in my gerbers! Shocking! I can almost guarantee that I wouldn't get that kind of support from a US supplier.

Many here are pondering how they are so cheap. Labor costs in China are now higher than India and continue to shoot further north. I'm constantly asking my day-jobs sales guys in China what the local salary for low-skill factory labor is, and it's shocking how much it's climbed.

In 2008 or so, they were making ~$300 a month - these guys are now getting $1200+ a month. (where the cost of living is a fraction of what we pay in the west!)
It's turning out to be difficult to get factory staff as well, with many youngsters now choosing to work in retail and offices. It's easier work for similar money.

I think the real reason that JLC can be so much cheaper than others is the number of panels they are doing. They've optimized their processes to handle hundreds of orders a day and to automate as much as possible. The western PCB houses talked about here are nowhere near as automated.

 

[r2d2]

……. my layout, asking if I wanted to revise before continuing. Now THIS is the type of support you really wish for when using 1992-vintage PCB layout programs l…..
(and sorry about posting tangentially to the OP question)

Great !

it is pc or mac ?
peace

 

[gyraf]

it is pc or mac ?

PC - number one systems "EasyPC" 3.10.90

Will run off a IBM PC (XT not required, AT is total overkill) with no harddisk, two 360K floppies is all that's required - one for program, one for designs and output..

 

[iampoor1]

Yeah, there are probably many complex reasons for this type of workmanship moving eastwards.

I panicked myself, when I lost my local PCB plant - did seriously not trust anyone else to deliver the quality and support I need for my commercial operation. Tried a couple of the cheap and less cheap online providers Europe and eastern, with varying but mostly catastrophic results.

A colleague recommended jetek-pcb, a small-ish operation in Shenzhen city. Sent them some artwork to be printed, and in an hour got a confirmation mail back, pointing to a number of possible problems in my layout, asking if I wanted to revise before continuing. Now THIS is the type of support you really wish for when using 1992-vintage PCB layout programs like I do - but it also shows a general attitude towards QC that is reassuring. Their prices are not the lowest around, but not higher than perhaps +/-50% from the rock-bottom-lowest. I think they compete on quality aspects rather than price - but still very, very far from what I used to pay locally  , even considering a good half of their price is the shipping. Their usual turn-around-time, when no hurries is specified, is around one week from I send the files until I have the PCB's in my hand (Denmark). If you try them, you will want to communicate with their guy Ivan Mao - fluent English, deep technical knowledge.

/Jakob E.
(and sorry about posting tangentially to the OP question)

Just cirious...how is the through hole plating, and trace adhesision, has the quality been consistent? I am not happy with most of the super low cost options...

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Just cirious...how is the through hole plating, and trace adhesision, has the quality been consistent? I am not happy with most of the super low cost options...

Are you saying you have PCB's where the traces lift and the TH go off? !
Do you do a lot of rework?

 

[gyraf]

Yes, the plating is one place where the very-cheap options showed out to be not so great.

That said, I really don't consider Jetek a cheap option (despite their decent pricing) - I've never had problems or even the slightest suspicion about their qualities.

For the copper adherence, I've been quite hard on many of their boards (often being first-prototypes and all), looking back I would have expected much more problems when soldering the same place the fifth time. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I think I see a pattern of high and consistent quality..

/Jakob E.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Just cirious...how is the through hole plating, and trace adhesision, has the quality been consistent? I am not happy with most of the super low cost options...

I had only one batch from cheap chinese proto houses with a sub par copper adhesion. Probably not that noticeable in production, but for prototype assembly and rework I lifted pads from overheating.  I compared PCB from two different batches from that same vendor, and only one batch had weak copper adhesion.

I suspect they have vendor issues just like any other business (and probably buy the cheapest they can find). They never responded to my inquiry regarding the weak copper adhesion, but the boards were crazy cheap, and worked well enough to prototype the design.

JR

 

[12afael]

I have had good experiences with China pcbs, good service and quality, they have spotted many errors on my side.
I have used https://www.pragoboard.cz/en for ultra quick prototyping. They have 1,2,3 days pool services. China quality is superior but it take 5 days.

there are other companies that offer pool services in europe. I know one in Estonia and Spain but I have not tried them.

Was not Gustav´s family have a pcb manufacture company?

for production we used to use Euro circuits great quality but to be honest provably you pay extra for something like mate finish.

 

[gyraf]

Yeah, Gustav's family business was my local provider - but they went under a couple of years ago...

 

[ruffrecords]

I have now received boards from two different non Chinese manufacturers. One was from www.multi-circuit-boards.eu in Germany and the second was https://www.lioncircuits.com/ in India. I had them both make essentially the same board (the Germans made the V1 board and the Indians the slightly modified V2). Both boards were identical in size as was much of the tracking. Here is a pic of the two boards as received (German on the left and Indian on the right):

In terms of tracks I see no discernable difference. The hot air levelling is a little brighter on the Indian boards. The silk screen on the German boards is definitely dull and underdone. The Indian ones are very legible.

In terms of costs, the German boards cost me £133.91 for 10 boards each 100mm by 100mm. The same number of same sized boards from India, including import charges, was £93.83.

In terms of time-frame, the German boards were ordered on 12th August and arrived on 24th August - 12 days later. The Indian ones were ordered on 20th August and arrived on 9th September -20 days later.

Cheers

Ian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

In terms of costs, the German boards cost me £133.91 for 10 boards each 100mm by 100mm. The same number of same sized boards from India, including import charges, was £93.83.

JLCPCB quotes about €24, including shipment via DHL Express. Actually, the cost of the PCB's is only €4.20. You'd have to pay VAT and whatever import duty on that. Here it amounts to about 1/3 of the total invoice.

In terms of time-frame, the German boards were ordered on 12th August and arrived on 24th August - 12 days later. The Indian ones were ordered on 20th August and arrived on 9th September -20 days later.

My last order was placed very late on the 3rd and arrived this morning. That's 5 1/2 days.
I can't complain about quality.

 

[ruffrecords]

JLCPCB quotes about €24, including shipment via DHL Express. Actually, the cost of the PCB's is only €4.20. You'd have to pay VAT and whatever import duty on that. Here it amounts to about 1/3 of the total invoice.
My last order was placed very late on the 3rd and arrived this morning. That's 5 1/2 days.
I can't complain about quality.

I used to use Allpcb and their quote  and delivery are very similar. Quality was perfectly OK too. I have no problem with Chinese cost effectiveness. I just do not want to use them any more on principle.

Cheers

Ian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I have no problem with Chinese cost effectiveness. I just do not want to use them any more on principle.

But India is correct?  ???

 

[gyraf]

..India is almost UK..  ;D