Cost effective European bare PCB manufacture

[ruffrecords]

But India is correct?  ???

I am loathe to get into a political discussion but China's behaviour in Hong Kong I find offensive. I made a personal decision not to buy PCBs from them any more. I would much preferred to have found a cost effective European supplier but any democracy that makes PCBs will be fine. So far I have tried India with reasonable success. I welcome any other suggestions.

Cheers

Ian

 

[gyraf]

I am loathe to get into a political discussion but China's behaviour in Hong Kong I find offensive.

I'm with you here, just pullin' your leg..  ;D

 

[JohnRoberts]

I recently ordered some PCB (and a stencil) from DirtyPCB,,,, the price was very good.
====
I applaud you singling out proto PCBs to punish the communist leadership, but have you stopped consuming all Chinese product?

Right now activists are calling for a boycott of Disney because they gave the Chinese government an acknowledgment in the credits of the Mulan movie (because of Chinese mis-treatment of Uighurs), despite the lead actor openly criticizing the Chinese anti-democracy moves in Hong Kong.

I accidentally bought a made in USA TV monitor. I didn't realize it was assembled in US until seeing that printed on the box... I suspect the subassemblies were manufactured by the likely suspects, you can guess where. Even if some subassemblies were fabbed here, many components surely came from "that" place. 

JR

PS: arguably the treatment of the Uighurs is more hideous that squashing democracy in hong kong, that is arguably shooting themselves in the foot (killing the golden goose). For any paying attention shots have reportedly been fired at the contentious Chinese/Indian border. Soldiers were killed already in hand to hand fighting due to a no-gunfire agreement, if this escalates to use of ballistic weapons, it will get nastier with more deaths. China has been pressing its advantage all around the world, while we are distracted by COVID, et al.

 

[ruffrecords]

I recently ordered some PCB (and a stencil) from DirtyPCB,,,, the price was very good.

But I think they have their boards made in China.
====

I applaud you singling out proto PCBs to punish the communist leadership, but have you stopped consuming all Chinese product?

As best we can, yes but of course it is not easy.

Right now activists are calling for a boycott of Disney because they gave the Chinese government an acknowledgment in the credits of the Mulan movie (because of Chinese mis-treatment of Uighurs), despite the lead actor openly criticizing the Chinese anti-democracy moves in Hong Kong.

I accidentally bought a made in USA TV monitor. I didn't realize it was assembled in US until seeing that printed on the box... I suspect the subassemblies were manufactured by the likely suspects, you can guess where. Even if some subassemblies were fabbed here, many components surely came from "that" place. 

JR

PS: arguably the treatment of the Uighurs is more hideous that squashing democracy in hong kong, that is arguably shooting themselves in the foot (killing the golden goose). For any paying attention shots have reportedly been fired at the contentious Chinese/Indian border. Soldiers were killed already in hand to hand fighting due to a no-gunfire agreement, if this escalates to use of ballistic weapons, it will get nastier with more deaths. China has been pressing its advantage all around the world, while we are distracted by COVID, et al.

Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times". We certainly do.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

But I think they have their boards made in China.

They openly state that they do...

I've told this story before, the last time I tried to order some production PCB from a non-Chinese vendor, I ordered a batch from a Canadian company. They arrived a few weeks later shipped direct to me from China. 

====As best we can, yes but of course it is not easy.Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times". We certainly do.

Cheers

Ian

I spent some time in mainland China and Hong Kong last century... it is more "interesting" now.

JR

PS: For something completely different, today I got an unsolicited shipment mailed from Cambodia. The customs declaration says it is a "hand towel". I can feel through the soft packaging that there is something cloth inside. I have little interest to investigate further. This may be another "brushing" scam like all those unsolicited Chinese seed mailings, but instead with cheap cloth masks, and from Cambodia instead of China.... or not.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I am loathe to get into a political discussion but China's behaviour in Hong Kong I find offensive. [b

[/b] A very tricky subject indeed. I don't want to diverge too much. You may have noticed I don't go to the Brewery anymore.

I would much preferred to have found a cost effective European supplier

That's what I did last year. I spent close to €1k for solitary prototypes, that cost me in qty of 5 less than 1/5th from JLCPCB. I read a lot about this and there is no doubt Europe is not competitive.

  but any democracy that makes PCBs will be fine. So far I have tried India with reasonable success.

For me India is not an example of what democracy should be. They have a long way to go with women's rights and the Dalits.

 

[ruffrecords]

For me India is not an example of what democracy should be. They have a long way to go with women's rights and the Dalits.

No argument about that, However, India has been a self governing democracy for less than 100 years. 100 years ago, England had barely achieved votes for all women, and forced sex in marriage was not considered rape. We all have some way to go. Some more than others. Hopefully democracy tends to keep us all going in the right direction.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

No argument about that, However, India has been a self governing democracy for less than 100 years. 100 years ago, England had barely achieved votes for all women, and forced sex in marriage was not considered rape. We all have some way to go. Some more than others. Hopefully democracy tends to keep us all going in the right direction.

Cheers

Ian

India is a remarkable (huge) democracy but all is not tea and roses.

They still have disputes in the Kashmir region (border with Pakistan), and border with China has recently erupted with gunfire (warning shots), but soldiers were killed by hand to hand fighting there in recent months. I don't get the sense that India is the aggressor in either of those border disputes. 

It is hard to compare them to other smaller democracies, which actually makes their accomplishment even more remarkable in light of the massive and diverse population.

JR 

 

[JohnRoberts]

My dirty PCBs finally showed up... I ordered a stencil, which is a bit much for a one off DIY but we'll see... should save some time and effort hand soldering that many tiny SMD parts. Tomorrow I will push some solder paste through it and see what happens.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

My dirty PCBs finally showed up... I ordered a stencil, which is a bit much for a one off DIY but we'll see... should save some time and effort hand soldering that many tiny SMD parts. Tomorrow I will push some solder paste through it and see what happens.

JR

I'm too old to be hand popping smd PCBs 

The hot air wand blew a few small parts around but mostly got er dun....

Tomorrow I'll touch up the wayward parts and pop the TH parts.

This sucker better sound good.  8)

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

I'm too old to be hand popping smd PCBs 

JR

Me too which is ironic because 30 to 40 years ago I was instrumental in introducing it to many companies in the UK.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

Me too which is ironic because 30 to 40 years ago I was instrumental in introducing it to many companies in the UK.

Cheers

Ian

Yup, last century when I was managing an engineering group I could just say do this, to one of my younger engineers.  8) We did a lot of single sided mixer PCB SMD with TH parts on top and SMD on the (single) solder side at Peavey. Very cost effective technology.

The good news is I had a lot of the SMD parts for this project on hand left over from two generations of drum tuner production. Of course I designed in parts I knew I had. All I had to buy new were some larger package 1% resistors (bigger is better for SMD resistors), and my old SMD resistors were the smallest I could get or quad packages. I also bought brand new electrolytic capacitors because, my old electrolytic capacitor inventory dates back to my kit business days, and was already several decades old (now binned). Of course the slick cmos 5V op amps were purchased new.

Time to put on multiple magnifying glasses and get back to the bench.

JR

 

[Ethan]

You could perhaps find somebody in Taiwan that meets the bill?

/Jakob E.

I was going to suggest the same. Although, Taiwan would like to be politically unaffiliated with China it seems China still considers it part of "their" PRC. FWIW I've used http://pcbnet.com in the past. They're based in Illinois but basically operate as a middleman brokerage for taiwanese PCB manufacturers.
Despite the soldermask being a bit thin, the PCBs were otherwise good and prices were very good--but that was a few years ago so things may have changed...?

I'm not familiar with EU manufacturers but in the US in terms of quality, I haven't seen anyone do better than Advanced Circuits (4pcb.com) but they're $$$$$! If you're looking for barebones, they offer this: https://www.4pcb.com/pcb-prototype-2-4-layer-boards-specials.html  but it's still probably a bit pricey compared to offshore options.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I was going to suggest the same. Although, Taiwan would like to be politically unaffiliated with China it seems China still considers it part of "their" PRC. FWIW I've used http://pcbnet.com in the past. They're based in Illinois but basically operate as a middleman brokerage for taiwanese PCB manufacturers.
Despite the soldermask being a bit thin, the PCBs were otherwise good and prices were very good--but that was a few years ago so things may have changed...?

I'm not familiar with EU manufacturers but in the US in terms of quality, I haven't seen anyone do better than Advanced Circuits (4pcb.com) but they're $$$$$! If you're looking for barebones, they offer this: https://www.4pcb.com/pcb-prototype-2-4-layer-boards-specials.html  but it's still probably a bit pricey compared to offshore options.

Speaking of Taiwan, a couple decades ago after I quit Peavey a head hunter tried to recruit me to work inside  Chinese factories representing some non-Chinese company's product production. I was never going to take that job, but I asked the head hunter where the parent company was located.... Taiwan.  :

JR

 

[warpie]

Does anyone know what the custom fees would be if you live in UK and you order PCBs from EU in comparison with ordering from China? Thanks.

 

[ruffrecords]

Does anyone know what the custom fees would be if you live in UK and you order PCBs from EU in comparison with ordering from China? Thanks.

Currently there are no UK customs fees for buying from the EU. That may change after Brexit. At the moment, for most countries like USA, Canada, China and India, you also pay no duty but you will be charged VAT plus an exorbitant fee by the carrier for collecting it. On a recent PCB order from India I was charged about £15 in VAT and another £11 for collecting it.

Cheers

Ian

 

[totoxraymond]

Same here with dhl.

Plus you pay vat on tax collecting fee  :

Recently, jlcpcb started collecting vat for France, so i don't have to use the long delivery service to avoid exorbitant fees. 

 

[warpie]

Currently there are no UK customs fees for buying from the EU. That may change after Brexit. At the moment, for most countries like USA, Canada, China and India, you also pay no duty but you will be charged VAT plus an exorbitant fee by the carrier for collecting it. On a recent PCB order from India I was charged about £15 in VAT and another £11 for collecting it.

Cheers

Ian

Thank you Ian. Yes I was referring to post-Brexit era but English isn't my first language.  The reason I'm asking is because occasionally I do order some stuff from UK and I'm not sure whether it'll be worth it anymore considering the custom fees/ delays, etc... On the other hand, if the hassle/ tax/ delays/ etc. is minimum it'll be good news for everyone I guess.

 

[ruffrecords]

Thank you Ian. Yes I was referring to post-Brexit era but English isn't my first language.  The reason I'm asking is because occasionally I do order some stuff from UK and I'm not sure whether it'll be worth it anymore considering the custom fees/ delays, etc... On the other hand, if the hassle/ tax/ delays/ etc. is minimum it'll be good news for everyone I guess.

As you probably know, negotiations are still going on. It is anybody's guess if they will reach agreement. The worst case scenario is no deal in which case it is expected that trading would be according to WTO terms which covers trade with 90% of the world.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

I thought it was worthwhile updating this thread. I have been using an Indian supplier Lion Circuits for about a year now and I have been very happy with the results. The quality has been consistently better than the Chinese suppliers I used to use. I have not stopped looking for a cost effective supplier close to home and I recently discovered AISLER based in Germany. Their PCB manufacturing takes place in Germany and the Czech Republic

Their minimum order is three boards, which is ideal for prototypes, and if you want more they go up in steps of 3. I got them to make me the latest vesion of the Mark 3 tube mixer channel amp PCB which is double eurocard size. I am pleased to say the boards look great and they take solder far better than both the Chinese and Indian PCBs. The boards are cheaper than the Indian ones, in part due to the lower shipping costs. Overall I would thoroughly recommend them.

Cheers

ioan